Changing The Industry Podcast

Lucas Underwood [00:00:00]:

That.

John Firm [00:00:00]:

But the lady I had that was working for me was, I thought, a rock star. And then she quit taking her bipolar medication. I never dealt with that before in my life. That was a learning experience, not knowing whether she was happy with you or mad at you or what. Then all of a sudden, she's blowing up mad at you for walking by and looking at the car she's working on.

Lucas Underwood [00:00:24]:

Well, know you've got his audio down, I think.

David Roman [00:00:28]:

Do I? No, I do not.

Lucas Underwood [00:00:30]:

Give me a mic check.

Mike Cleary [00:00:31]:

Mike check.

Lucas Underwood [00:00:32]:

Come on up.

David Roman [00:00:32]:

Pull that. You got to have that mic, like, right on top of you.

Mike Cleary [00:00:37]:

Mike check.

David Roman [00:00:37]:

There you.

Lucas Underwood [00:00:39]:

That's. We get into that situation, and we spend the majority of our time trying to figure out what the hell we.

John Firm [00:00:45]:

Did wrong, and we didn't do nothing wrong.

Lucas Underwood [00:00:47]:

Exactly. But you want to give them the benefit of the doubt. You want to try and figure out, like, hey, why is this happening? Why is this happening, man? I'll never forget. We went to a class A while back. We were in the original Aste Hotel. This is just a couple of months back, Remus class. And this woman is in this class, and she is absolutely talking trash about the owner. And I know the owner, and I'm like, I know this person.

Lucas Underwood [00:01:13]:

This is not. I mean, sure, things can happen behind closed doors that you don't know about, but I know this person. There's no way. And so, man, it kept going and going and going, and she's talking so bad about him. And I'll never forget the moment I realized why. Because they're playing telephone calls back, and they go to play this telephone call back, and it's hers. And she's already made every single excuse. She's framed every which thing you can imagine about how he's a piece of junk, right? And they play the telephone call back, and everybody in the room realized why she was acting the way she was acting.

Lucas Underwood [00:01:49]:

Hello? What? You out? You know what I mean?

John Firm [00:01:53]:

Yeah.

Lucas Underwood [00:01:53]:

And so I will never forget that interaction and seeing the way. And so I talked to him, and I said, hey, I said, I'm not trying to put my nose in anybody's business. It's none of my business at all. But I think I Would talk to this employee, and he said, what do you mean? I said, man, I don't want to get into all the specifics and everything else, but I think I'd talk to this employee and make sure everything's okay. Two weeks later, he called me back, and he said, she doesn't work here anymore. I said, why not, he said, because she had a completely different image of the human being that I was.

John Firm [00:02:23]:

Wow.

Lucas Underwood [00:02:23]:

And she had made her mind up about me. She never asked me. She never talked to me. She never said, how do you feel about this? Or, hey, you've upset me and you've done this. He said, she had bottled all that up inside and never talked to me about it. And I think about all the times that as a business owner, as an employer, that I never realized that they had been acquiring baggage all along and every little thing they had made up their mind. We had the Eric and Laura Lee story a while back, and the service advisor was convinced they were making millions and millions of dollars and they were just putting in their pocket, and he wasn't taking any of that home. And it wasn't true.

John Firm [00:03:03]:

No.

Lucas Underwood [00:03:03]:

And so I don't think it's the same in your case. Maybe a little bit. But I think we can be too kind. We get away because we're professionals, but we're laid back. Me and you were country boys, and so we do things a little bit different. We're laid back. We want to have a fun environment, and we never set that standard and say, this is how we do business.

John Firm [00:03:26]:

Yeah, I agree with you on the standards of it. I was having a problem with swallowing the too kindness part. I really was. You all know me. I'm such a nice guy, lovable, caring, and all that.

Lucas Underwood [00:03:39]:

There is nothing wrong with being too kind, as long as you have the right people to be kind to.

John Firm [00:03:45]:

That was the other part of the stick, too. When are you too kind? And I was telling a guy the other day, you can be too kind, too nice, too giving to the person that's taking advantage of you.

David Roman [00:03:57]:

Yeah. And then make sure you introduce our.

Mike Cleary [00:04:00]:

And they'll capitalize on that.

David Roman [00:04:01]:

Yeah, Mike Cleary and John firm knows.

Lucas Underwood [00:04:07]:

Who John firm is.

David Roman [00:04:08]:

Yeah, I know.

Lucas Underwood [00:04:08]:

They heard that.

David Roman [00:04:10]:

They heard his voice. They know.

Lucas Underwood [00:04:11]:

They knew.

Mike Cleary [00:04:13]:

I'm just Mike Cleary on Facebook. No, I'm not part of the Witness protection program.

John Firm [00:04:18]:

Like, he is on Instagram. He is the garage God.

Lucas Underwood [00:04:22]:

The garage God.

John Firm [00:04:23]:

Hashtag the garage God on Instagram.

Mike Cleary [00:04:25]:

There's a story behind that. I did not pick that name.

John Firm [00:04:31]:

His daughter did. And I love it.

Lucas Underwood [00:04:33]:

I, like, mean, it's got a. I. I've never heard somebody so excited to meet Mike Cleary as Jeff Compton was.

John Firm [00:04:41]:

Oh, he was, wasn't he, boys?

Lucas Underwood [00:04:42]:

He come in there and he said, why? Oh, my. Said, I knew him years ago. And he said he didn't even know who my. He didn't even know my name. He didn't even know who I was. He said, we took classes, and he said, I begged him, please let me take Mike Cleary's class. I just really want to take Mike Cleary's class. He said, oh, I mean, he was.

Mike Cleary [00:04:59]:

Absolutely just a regular.

Lucas Underwood [00:05:01]:

He was. I learned so much from him.

Mike Cleary [00:05:04]:

I'm just a regular guy.

John Firm [00:05:05]:

Regular guy, rock star, regular guy, regular, you know?

Lucas Underwood [00:05:11]:

I don't know, John. And where is. And it's hard to tell where to draw that line at, because there becomes a time when you're getting walked on, and the very second that you cross that line, it's like a line in the sand. I don't know what it is. I went through this.

John Firm [00:05:29]:

It triggers.

Lucas Underwood [00:05:30]:

And this person died recently. And I have had, like, flashbacks of the whole situation in my head. Did I do the right thing? Did I handle it the right way? We were up on that panel, and we were talking about how technicians are upset with owners. And I know not all owners feel that way, but, man, I still have flashbacks. And I wake up in the middle of the night and think, man, did I handle that the right way? Did I say the right thing? But I care about people. I love my people, right? I love the people in our circles. And I don't think technicians realize, and maybe it's true, maybe there's bad shops out there, but I think there's fewer bad shops that actually care about their, that don't actually care about their people than there are good shops.

Mike Cleary [00:06:11]:

I think part of that, too, is we're self critical because we were all technicians at one. I. John's heard me say this before, and I tell, you know, before you start complaining about your owner, you should own a shop, right? Because I think we were talking about this last night in California. Door rates are pretty high, and the shop is $180 an hour. And some techs think that whole $180 is going in the guy's wallet, right? They don't see all the fees behind the scenes, like, especially in California. Hazardous material fee, air compressor permit fees.

David Roman [00:06:51]:

All these fees have an air compressor permit?

Mike Cleary [00:06:54]:

Yep. Excuse me.

John Firm [00:06:56]:

We don't have that in Texas.

Lucas Underwood [00:06:58]:

But y'all ain't got nothing in Texas.

John Firm [00:07:00]:

Amen.

Mike Cleary [00:07:03]:

They don't see all the back fees that you got to pay liability insurance unless they've been there.

David Roman [00:07:11]:

You know what the problem is, right? The shop owners who decide to open shops in California. Shut them all down, boys.

John Firm [00:07:17]:

Yeah.

David Roman [00:07:18]:

Ship them to another state.

John Firm [00:07:20]:

Let the bottleneck begin. The trucking industry is doing that.

David Roman [00:07:25]:

Just put them on the border like, hey, you got to drive to Vegas, you got to drive to Arizona, you got to drive to Oregon to get your car worked on. What do you mean? Talk to your local representative. They've made this possible.

Lucas Underwood [00:07:39]:

They really do.

Mike Cleary [00:07:41]:

There's only one reason people live in California, right, John? Yeah, it's the weather.

Lucas Underwood [00:07:47]:

I could see that.

John Firm [00:07:48]:

Yeah, that's what that lady told me.

David Roman [00:07:50]:

I can see, like, right in the middle of the state where it's 70 and beautiful all the time. You get too far south and it's 99 degrees, oppressively hot. Well, where I live, and it smells like urine. And you got to step over people as you.

Mike Cleary [00:08:06]:

I think you're thinking of San Francisco.

David Roman [00:08:09]:

I'm thinking of the weather in San Francisco. I can see now I would probably leave the city and then set up camp somewhere.

Lucas Underwood [00:08:18]:

Literally camp.

David Roman [00:08:20]:

Yeah, because you can't afford a house.

Mike Cleary [00:08:21]:

Where I live in Fresno is almost. Well, I just moved over closer to the coast, but we're almost in the exact geographical center of the state. So, point of reference, we're about 60 miles south of Yosemite National PaRK, and it gets oppressively hot in the summer there, like 100 and 510 degrees.

John Firm [00:08:40]:

Oh, that's so hot.

Mike Cleary [00:08:45]:

But I never thought I would say this until I lived in Oxford, Mississippi, for six months. I'll take 110 degree day in Fresno anytime over 85, 90 degrees.

David Roman [00:08:58]:

Oh, budy.

Lucas Underwood [00:08:58]:

Mississippi it is.

Mike Cleary [00:09:01]:

My God.

David Roman [00:09:02]:

110 in Mississippi is a free 110 degree. I am free. What I want and not be fined just to own an air compressor in my repair shop.

Lucas Underwood [00:09:15]:

Get out of here with that. I could not.

David Roman [00:09:20]:

Hey, they just passed a new minimum wage law in California to see this. $20 for fast food workers.

John Firm [00:09:26]:

725 in Texas.

David Roman [00:09:29]:

Nobody's getting paid. 725.

John Firm [00:09:31]:

Nobody's getting paid.

David Roman [00:09:32]:

725 in Kansas. I was telling dude from earlier, he's like, what's your minimum wage? 725. He's like, nobody gets paid. 725. He's like, well, that makes sense. That's the way it should be. You can make it zero. Nobody's going to get paid zero unless you're willing to work for zero.

John Firm [00:09:50]:

Well, the people that do restaurants, and they don't pay the waitress, they pay you through tips.

Lucas Underwood [00:09:56]:

North Carolina is 235 minimum on tip. If you're a tipped worker, it's like.

Mike Cleary [00:10:01]:

That in a lot of states, minimum wage for restaurant workers is a lot lower.

David Roman [00:10:05]:

Okay. But the fantastic waitress we had at Flemings, she is making over $100,000 a year working at Flemings.

Lucas Underwood [00:10:12]:

Yeah. Here's the thing is, I've seen a couple of shops. I know of four shops that I can think of right now, that they would bring somebody in to work. And I've watched these owners in these four shops systematically create golden handcuffs. In this instance, it was situations where these people had been in trouble. They couldn't get a job somewhere else. He found them, and he got them into the business. And now he's not doing anything else legal, but he's paying them $300 a week to work on cars.

Lucas Underwood [00:10:48]:

Now he has their bank account. He's paying them cash because the bank account is in his name. He takes the cash out of the business, Pays them no workman's comp, no Insurance, like no liability Insurance, no nothing. And so he's out here, and he's got these People working for $300 a month. Now, minimum wage is not going to protect that.

David Roman [00:11:06]:

How bad? Minimum wage doesn't protect that at all.

Lucas Underwood [00:11:10]:

But I guess minimum wage doesn't fix.

David Roman [00:11:14]:

Under the table repair.

Lucas Underwood [00:11:16]:

I think that was the idea behind it is it would stop abuse of the.

David Roman [00:11:19]:

No, the idea behind it was, we need a form of continuous taxation. That's all it is.

John Firm [00:11:27]:

That's all it is.

David Roman [00:11:27]:

They need a little bump in the payroll tax. What do we do? We jack up the minimum wage. I was working in a grocery store, and I was facing the pop bottles. That's what I was doing, facing the pop bottle. And this old guy walks up to me and he goes, what do you make here? I'm like, $6.75 an hour. And he's like, you know why that is, right? I go, no, because politicians want more tax money. Like, what? I was, like, 16. I had no idea what the hell he was talking about.

John Firm [00:11:57]:

He didn't know who Paul Christian was.

David Roman [00:11:59]:

He's like, they jack up the minimum wage to pay you more, but they're just taking more of your payroll taxes the more out. And payroll taxes, they just need a bump in that.

Lucas Underwood [00:12:09]:

He was right. What I like most about David is that we can be having a conversation, and the moment that something about tax comes up, he becomes so aggressive. He becomes aggressive.

David Roman [00:12:24]:

Am I being aggressive?

Lucas Underwood [00:12:24]:

No. I can see a change.

John Firm [00:12:26]:

Like I would be.

Lucas Underwood [00:12:28]:

Yeah, I can see a change. I can see you shift, your eyes change, and you get this look about you and you.

Mike Cleary [00:12:33]:

Passion.

John Firm [00:12:34]:

Let's talk about taxes for an hour.

David Roman [00:12:36]:

You said aggressive. He said passionate.

Mike Cleary [00:12:38]:

But see, I'm from California, so I got to be politically correct, right?

Lucas Underwood [00:12:42]:

You say aggressive in California, get somebody shot.

Mike Cleary [00:12:44]:

The cops show up passionate. You're passionate. You're passionate about taxation.

David Roman [00:12:52]:

I couldn't do it. I don't know how you do it. I couldn't do it.

Mike Cleary [00:12:56]:

I just look at it this way. I'm being taxed to not have to shovel snow.

Lucas Underwood [00:13:00]:

So while we're on controversial, Mike Cleary, you said some things about Ase and you said some things about the way that trainers are paid and the way that training events work. The mic is yours, sir.

Mike Cleary [00:13:18]:

Where do you want me to start?

Lucas Underwood [00:13:20]:

WherevEr you want.

Mike Cleary [00:13:21]:

Let's start with, um. I am a proponent of ASE, but I am not a proponent of the way they do business. I don't think they. Well, let me put it to you this way. A lot of technicians, and first off, let me say this. I'm ASC Master certified automotive and truck. My first master certification was 1980.

David Roman [00:13:49]:

Okay?

Mike Cleary [00:13:50]:

So right now I'm currently Master Automotive Master truck. L one, L two, l three, F one, which is natural gas. Why do I do it? Just a matter of personal pride, which maybe that's why most technicians do it. And I just think that Ase along the way has lost their focus. I think this is the controversial part. I guess it's a cash grab, I think. Okay, passing score on an L one. John's heard me say this a million times.

Mike Cleary [00:14:24]:

Passing score on an L one is 65%.

David Roman [00:14:28]:

Have they lowered that?

Mike Cleary [00:14:32]:

That's the latest I have.

David Roman [00:14:34]:

That's what I'm saying. I remember trying to study for the L one because I thought I was going to do the L one. I was going to pass it because.

John Firm [00:14:47]:

I was going to try to pass it.

David Roman [00:14:50]:

I've got this. Yeah, I thought. And I'm looking through it, it's just freeze frame data. And what's wrong with this car? I'm like, I don't know. It looks okay. And that's all it was. That was a study guide. Freeze frame data.

David Roman [00:15:07]:

Like old school, like on a tech. Two freeze frame data. What's wrong with this car score then? Was 75. Was it okay? That's what I'm asking.

John Firm [00:15:17]:

Yeah. With a tech.

David Roman [00:15:17]:

They've dumbed down the test I just.

Mike Cleary [00:15:19]:

Took, recertified for L One. But I've seen some other guys post how you get a printed test score and they've been on Facebook and they don't look doctored to me. And I've had other guys tell me, yeah, I had to have a 65 to pass the regular exam.

Lucas Underwood [00:15:35]:

So you're probably more versed on the subject than David and I. But I remember a podcast, that Carm did with Chris Chesney, and he said that ASe was formed because at the time, there were fears that the federal government was going to regulate automotive, and they had said or done things that showed that they had that intent.

Mike Cleary [00:15:59]:

That's my understanding as well.

Lucas Underwood [00:16:02]:

And so a group of people got together and said, we can self regulate and we can do this and we can show you that we can do this. And that's how it was started. From my perspective, that is not where we are. Right.

Mike Cleary [00:16:14]:

Agree.

Lucas Underwood [00:16:14]:

Um, and, you know, I've watched so much, and Seth will get mad at me for saying this. I've watched so much about the NATEF situation and the way that schools are accredited and the way those things are done, and I don't necessarily agree with some of that and some of the curriculum, and we've got people working to change that. So I'm thankful for that. But I'm with you. It feels like a cash grab right now because it doesn't feel like they're doing anything to market ase to the consumers.

Mike Cleary [00:16:47]:

That's where I was headed with my. Yeah, I agree with you 100%.

David Roman [00:16:51]:

And so we've been ranting about this entirely. This should absolutely be consumer driven, 100%. The same thing with the associations, except for ASTA, they're wonderful. But everybody else, they should be 100% driven towards the consumer that do not go to a shop unless they have AC certified technicians, do not go to a shop unless they are a member of the ACA, ASTA, on and on.

Lucas Underwood [00:17:13]:

And so here's my next question. Now, Jim Coconuts dropped this on me, and we were sitting at dinner one night and he said, lucas, he said, you're talking about these certifications like they have the ability to change something or do something different for our industry. He said, but, son, they're just a piece of paper. Where's the competency? There's no guarantee of competency in any of this. And so you want to tell me that a man is a professional and he knows what he's doing based on a test? And he said, I'm going to tell you. He said, some of the absolute best test takers in the world could not fix a car to save their lives. And he said, so where is it that we're going to get competency based testing? So he brings this up because he's huge in education and he's part of the workforce development here for ASTA, and he's part of the organization here that's driving that and moving that forward. But Jim says, look, it's great that you have apprentices, but unless you have a curriculum which walks them through working on a car, safely lifting the car, creating structure where they can learn and they can make mistakes and they can grow and then when they get done they can prove that they know that because you can put them in a shop and that shop will just let them do whatever it is they want to do.

Lucas Underwood [00:18:28]:

And it's hard to teach somebody, you know that it's hard to teach somebody. You take a 16, 1718 year old kid and you try to teach them boys, it's a whole lot harder. And so if the goal, if the end result we're looking for is simply to be able to say I'm an apprentice or I pass the test for God's sakes, what are we doing? Because it doesn't accomplish anything.

Mike Cleary [00:18:52]:

I completely agree. And to some degree they have that in Canada, but it hasn't helped. Hasn't, no, I agree. And Jeff and I kind of talked the other night as best you can and when everybody, you got so many people around but they lowered the standard 65%. Okay. And think about this, this is the analogy I always use because I can't tell you how many times I've heard technicians say we should be paid the same amount as doctors. Well, I disagree completely with that comment. Okay, first off, a lot of tech, my wife was a physical therapist.

Mike Cleary [00:19:30]:

She has to go to continued training every year to keep her license. Now, again, that's a licensing issue. And yes, it's a paper test, okay, but how would you feel if you were going into open heart surgery and you found out your surgeon had a 65% test score on his state board, right?

Lucas Underwood [00:19:49]:

Yeah.

Mike Cleary [00:19:50]:

I don't care whether it's a paper test or not, you're not going to be real comfortable as they put the anesthesia in you. And then I get arguments from other people and I'm open minded so I don't have all the answers. But they're like, well, and going back to your comment out, Ase told the government we'll take care of all this, right?

Lucas Underwood [00:20:09]:

Yeah.

Mike Cleary [00:20:13]:

They got this 65% score going and then they're not doing anything for the techs. Okay, back, I forget how many years ago it was. They came out with health insurance program for the techs. They don't have it anymore. My wife looked at it first off, the tech was going to have to pay for it. And my wife being a medical professional, I told her the garage I worked at, I didn't have health insurance. I was on her policy. And I told her, hey, look at this.

Mike Cleary [00:20:44]:

And she's like, this is minimal coverage. She says, you better have an arm cut off. I'm exaggerating to make a point, but she goes, you better have an arm cut off to get any benefit out of this. For years, they've told us, remember, I've been in Ase certified for 43 years. We're going to do a nationwide marketing campaign. That never happened, right?

Lucas Underwood [00:21:08]:

I never see it. I never see it. My daddy always told me when I was little, I would go and make decisions, and I would tell him why my decision was okay, right? And it had a bad result. And my dad. And the term always came from him. You've heard me say it many, many times, son, the road to Hell's paved with good intentions. And I'll never forget. We're not going to talk about why I was in court, but I was in court.

Lucas Underwood [00:21:38]:

One of those good intentions, the judge was literally up front in the courtroom, and his name was Phil Gin. And fantastic, brilliant human being, traveled the country, traveled the world, and came back. And at one point, I ended up having jury duty with him again later. He was my dad's attorney, and he said, this justice system in this country, he said, you may hate it, and you may hate being here for jury duty, and you may hate everything about this, but I can promise you, compared to anywhere else in the world, this is the fairest system. And if you have any other ideas, we're all, here's where you got some ideas. And I'll never forget. Judge Gin, stand up there at the front of the courtroom, and the attorney made his argument, and the plaintiff stands up and explains, or the defendant stands up and explains his position. Judge Ginn said, son, he said, I feel terrible for you.

Lucas Underwood [00:22:35]:

He said, I really do. But ignorance is absolutely no excuse for breaking the law. It doesn't matter that you didn't know it was a law. It's still a law. You have a personal responsibility. Right? Well, it's the same thing with ASE. They have a business responsibility because they told us they were going to do something. To me, it seems like there's a lot of lip service right now.

John Firm [00:22:57]:

There is.

Lucas Underwood [00:22:58]:

That says, we're going to do this, boys. We're going to do this blue Seal program. We're going to put the blue Seal on shops. I have asked my consumers, do you know what ASE is? No. Never heard of it.

David Roman [00:23:13]:

They know the word certified. They don't know what that means. Right.

Mike Cleary [00:23:16]:

Well, I was at an ASE management conference years ago. And I made the comment in the room. It was one of those panel groups, and there were 40, 50 people in the room. And I said, my customers don't care if I'm ASE certified as a tech. They just want their vehicles fixed. They couldn't care less. And you could have heard a pin drop in the room. And it's like, I'll get arguments from ASE proponents that, well, technicians are getting pay raises because we're providing ASE certification.

Mike Cleary [00:23:50]:

And my argument is, no, they're getting pay raises because their employer are just giving them a pay raise. The other argument I'll get is, well, they provide a minimum performance standard for certification. And my argument is, is that really what we're after in this industry is a minimum performance standard.

Lucas Underwood [00:24:07]:

Exactly right. 100% if there's no competency component to it. Right. And if we have a minimum standard with no competency component.

David Roman [00:24:19]:

There is a competency component. It was supposed to be two years of training in a shop with the owner.

Lucas Underwood [00:24:26]:

How many people I have seen.

David Roman [00:24:28]:

I'm just saying that they had that factored in. It hasn't worked out the way they wanted it to, but they did have something there.

Mike Cleary [00:24:35]:

Yeah, they had a thought process in place, but under Tom, Dick or Harry could verify, could vouch for you, and it was never verified.

Lucas Underwood [00:24:42]:

Yeah.

Mike Cleary [00:24:43]:

Right. Then I've made some posts, as you guys have seen, on social media. I made an innocent post, I thought, on Scott's network. Yeah, I was just curious, when you guys take part in the test writing procedure, how do they compensate you? I thought it was just an innocent enough question. Maybe I shouldn't have asked it on Scott's network, but I did. And this one guy from ASE jumped all over me and he said, you have no business asking that question in an open forum like this.

David Roman [00:25:25]:

What?

Mike Cleary [00:25:26]:

And I had Phil Fornier, who I'm sure you probably heard of Phil, came to my defense and said, hey, it was an innocent. Basically, I'm paraphrasing. It was an innocent question. This guy's actually a really good tech. And if you need a guy to write your diesel a nine, this is a guy you consider he's not just like some Joe Blow. And then a couple of other guys came on and they're like, even if.

David Roman [00:25:49]:

You were a Joe blow, why can't you ask that question?

Mike Cleary [00:25:52]:

That's what they said too. They go, this is an open forum network.

Lucas Underwood [00:25:56]:

Why would it be a problem? Why the host that question?

Mike Cleary [00:25:58]:

Why the hostility? Yeah, right.

David Roman [00:26:00]:

It's because they don't pay them. It's for freezes. Or do you have to pay?

John Firm [00:26:05]:

They pay you, but the equivalent to what they pay you is $45.

Mike Cleary [00:26:10]:

It's funny that this came up because.

John Firm [00:26:13]:

If you can do it in Spanish, it's just a little bit more.

Mike Cleary [00:26:18]:

They do it by Zoom. So about a year has gone by, and when I got this text, they asked, well, here was the OD thing. Okay, I know I'm older and I'm a throwback, but if I'm going to ask somebody to participate, if I was working for ASE and I was going to ask somebody to participate in a test writing session, I wouldn't send it to me. This happened over Facebook Messenger?

Lucas Underwood [00:26:54]:

No, that's how I got it. That shows you a decline in level of professionalism.

David Roman [00:27:01]:

What's wrong with Facebook Messenger? You do everything through Facebook messenger, but.

Lucas Underwood [00:27:05]:

Not something like that.

Mike Cleary [00:27:06]:

Like, I'm a throwback. Right. To me, they should have either called me or emailed me. They were doing it on Zoom now. So their expenses have been cut, which. That's fine if they're comfortable. It's their business, right?

Lucas Underwood [00:27:22]:

Yeah, it Is easier, right? Zoom is easier. I can see that being easier to.

Mike Cleary [00:27:28]:

Navigate, but I had to be online at 06:00 a.m. Pacific time.

John Firm [00:27:37]:

He talked so much, he's almost lost his.

Mike Cleary [00:27:41]:

That doesn't happen very often. And the pay was, I'm not an arrogant person, but for my level of expertise, the pay was insulting.

Lucas Underwood [00:27:54]:

Well, that leads me to the concept that if we're unwilling, as that organization that is writing the test, to pay for absolute top notch talent to help us write these tests and make sure, because that's the only way they have to ensure competency. Right?

David Roman [00:28:15]:

Yeah.

Lucas Underwood [00:28:16]:

That's the only way is have a truly competent tech write that test in a way that everybody in the room says, boys, I don't think I could outsmart that. You know what I'm saying? I don't think I could work my way around that. And so the fact that they're unwilling to pay, I mean, if our top techs in this nation are earning $125 to $150,000 a year, why do you.

David Roman [00:28:38]:

Keep shifting the number up? Well, I'm saying, yeah, 210,000.

Lucas Underwood [00:28:45]:

No, I'm saying 854,000. Okay. I'm saying that for a tech of his caliber, right. Somebody like that, that is the very top. You will not find a more skilled power stroke technician in the world.

David Roman [00:28:59]:

Okay.

Lucas Underwood [00:28:59]:

Right. He's a one in a million.

Mike Cleary [00:29:01]:

Thank you. That's a little embarrassing. But thank you. I appreciate that.

John Firm [00:29:05]:

That's how you got the name garage. God.

Lucas Underwood [00:29:06]:

That's right. But I mean, I'm just saying he is a one in a million tech in his field. Right. He is an elite technician. And so I'm not scaling that up. I'm saying that if he were to be working in a shop, he could command that type of wage to work in a shop.

David Roman [00:29:24]:

Right. I think they'll always find somebody that will say yes, regardless of the dollar amount. So they're willing to take the lesser.

Lucas Underwood [00:29:33]:

Just for the stature, the stature, the.

David Roman [00:29:36]:

Status, the clout of being able to say, well, I'm an ase test writer.

John Firm [00:29:42]:

Exactly. There's so many people that will.

David Roman [00:29:44]:

You don't care. But you got a younger guy that's up and coming, just started his class. You got a Scott Hicks who's trying to build a brand, trying to build himself up as a tRainer, and they invite him to write ASE test questions at cut rate prices. He might jump on it.

John Firm [00:30:01]:

We got to stop Oscar from doing.

David Roman [00:30:07]:

But you think an Oscar, he's trying to build himself up where you're more established, everybody knows the name, and you're like, I'm not going to take advantage.

Lucas Underwood [00:30:16]:

Just like the things we were talking about in there on the panel, working for bad shops.

David Roman [00:30:21]:

Right.

Lucas Underwood [00:30:22]:

Because the system is known for doing that.

John Firm [00:30:26]:

I love that meeting because I'm sitting there looking, I'm thinking, man, what a way to market my business.

Lucas Underwood [00:30:32]:

Yeah.

John Firm [00:30:33]:

I'm needing a new technician come January 1. Craig retiring, and I'm thinking, I love it. That's the bonus I got from that little meeting you all had on stage.

Lucas Underwood [00:30:46]:

Yeah.

David Roman [00:30:46]:

Market shop. That's what you got?

John Firm [00:30:50]:

Yeah.

Lucas Underwood [00:30:50]:

I didn't hear.

David Roman [00:30:52]:

Well, yeah, that's what I get.

Lucas Underwood [00:30:56]:

But, I mean, if we're going to.

David Roman [00:30:58]:

Keep the organization, Ase, it's for profit.

Lucas Underwood [00:31:03]:

I don't think it's a nonprofit, is it? I think Natef is a nonprofit. The NAtEf or ASE Education foundation side of its nonprofit.

John Firm [00:31:13]:

Right.

Lucas Underwood [00:31:13]:

But Ase itself is a for profit organization.

Mike Cleary [00:31:16]:

And you know what? I'm a businessman, so I don't mind people making money. That's what this country is all about. But if you're going to come out and say you're going to do this, then do it.

Lucas Underwood [00:31:25]:

Yeah.

Mike Cleary [00:31:25]:

Don't have an asset, and don't blow off your main income source, which is the technicians. Do something for the technicians. Yeah. I recertified as a master technician this year. I got another toolbox magnet.

Lucas Underwood [00:31:40]:

Okay.

Mike Cleary [00:31:41]:

And I'm not doing it to get an award, okay? Because I really don't need to be certified to be honest with you.

Lucas Underwood [00:31:48]:

Here's what frustrates me.

David Roman [00:31:50]:

Are you then feeding the machine, though.

Mike Cleary [00:31:52]:

I guess you could look at it that way. I get back from it a sense of personal pride that I passed the test, which I guess is a little bit warped because I know the passing score is 65%.

Lucas Underwood [00:32:04]:

I could have sucked and steal.

David Roman [00:32:08]:

Minimum level of competency, but I passed.

Lucas Underwood [00:32:13]:

That's what's bad, is minimum level of competency. And we've reduced that competency even further because now it's 65% of the minimum level of competency. Like, you don't even have to meet the minimum level of competency at 100%. If you can do halfway good, it's fine.

Mike Cleary [00:32:30]:

And I'll be honest with the F one, which is natural gas. I had no business passing that test. I just took it to see if I could, and I did. And I thought, wow. And I've never worked on a natural gas vehicle in my life. Now all that proves to me is I'm good at taking tests.

Lucas Underwood [00:32:51]:

What worries me, or at least know.

David Roman [00:32:54]:

The fundamentals enough to get a 65.

Lucas Underwood [00:32:56]:

Maybe what worries me is that when folks have been critical of the organization, and I'm sure we'll hear about it.

David Roman [00:33:07]:

From this, a technician, ASC, people listening.

Lucas Underwood [00:33:11]:

To this a, the technicians who are ASC certified kind of feel a little kind of way about it because we've said something bad about their accreditation or about that. So it's a personal stab. So first of all, no, like, if you've taken the time. Right. I want to acknowledge that if you've taken the time to go take the test and you've invested in your career.

David Roman [00:33:31]:

I feel that you're personally attacking them.

Mike Cleary [00:33:33]:

I'm not attacking them, though. I'm attacking ASC.

David Roman [00:33:37]:

No, not you. Not you, Mike.

John Firm [00:33:39]:

Yeah.

David Roman [00:33:39]:

Lucas, however, is a person is personally attacking everybody. You do see the posts where they are very proud of what they're.

Mike Cleary [00:33:48]:

And they should be, and they should.

David Roman [00:33:52]:

Be and more so if the association properly positioned the accreditation within the industry.

Lucas Underwood [00:33:59]:

What I was going to get at, though, is that the organization itself has been extremely critical of anybody who says anything negative about it. I know there are some people out there that will absolutely flip their wig, get in social media, send you emails, say nasty things, and basically tell you're an idiot and you don't know what you're talking about because you don't. I think my perspective would be. Would be to refute said claims.

David Roman [00:34:31]:

Right.

Lucas Underwood [00:34:31]:

I would refute and I would say, hey, I'm really sorry you feel this way. Let's talk about it. Let's go over this. But there are some people who will downright, I mean, they will get nasty and say nasty things. And if you want to make your point, boys, I've learned a lot of things about not saying nasty things.

David Roman [00:34:47]:

Anybody that says they're not being realistic, though, I don't think anybody that's in the industry on a day to day basis and talks to customers can say that ASE has absolutely any impact or standing to the normal consumer, and therefore it dictates the behavior of the technicians and the shop owners. If it doesn't drive any additional value for the consumer to be ASE certified, then the shop owner is not going to value it. I don't. And the only reason why you don't value it because the customers aren't asking for it. Okay. And so you don't value it. So you could give two flips with the technicians. And that attitude permeates its way down to the technicians.

David Roman [00:35:32]:

The technicians see it as, why should I?

Lucas Underwood [00:35:35]:

That's right.

David Roman [00:35:36]:

What's the point?

John Firm [00:35:37]:

And I've got young technicians that work for me, and I don't see value in making them go take a test, even though I would pay for the test. I'm a Tetnet shop, so Tetnet would pay for the test. They get paid double for the test.

Mike Cleary [00:35:50]:

I don't push, I mean, like I said, I'm doing it out of personal pride. That's the only reason.

David Roman [00:35:57]:

It's only trainers that are keeping.

Lucas Underwood [00:36:03]:

For us. Right. We're 2 hours from any major metropolitan area.

David Roman [00:36:07]:

Right.

Lucas Underwood [00:36:08]:

And those aren't even major metropolitan areas.

David Roman [00:36:10]:

But they don't administer at App State.

Lucas Underwood [00:36:12]:

No. And so they've got to drive like an hour away. And then the organization of the setup when they go to take their test. Oh, well, sorry. And that's the test organization proton or whatever it is. Prometric. But it's like, well, we're not actually doing that test today. And it's a constant thing.

Lucas Underwood [00:36:36]:

So we just stopped sending people because every time they went, it was a wasted day as a battle. Yeah. And it was always a problem. And they were always like, well, sorry. You should have known. You should have known. There's no communication.

John Firm [00:36:48]:

Dallas Zero communication Metroplex. You have an appointment. So many at a time. Go in the booth, take your test. And they do that probably once a weeK. They do all week long an ase test. And then the next week is different tests for other people. But we've been very lucky in the Dallas Fort Worth Market to where we don't have that.

John Firm [00:37:08]:

We're not ready. We don't have enough people. We don't have enough test stuff or whatever. It pretty dependable.

Lucas Underwood [00:37:14]:

We have not had a dependable experience where we're at. And it would not be that big of a deal if it wasn't an hour away. And so the kicker for us was, and the reason we stopped doing it is because we sent them to a class or sent them to take their test, and they were like, oh, we should have called and told you. We don't actually do those tests here. You got to go somewhere else.

Mike Cleary [00:37:36]:

Oh, boy.

Lucas Underwood [00:37:37]:

And so it was thing after thing like that where it turned into a deal. And it's just like, we're not getting anything for this. How can I continue to ask these guys? I would much rather them come down here and take a class and get a certificate from this class, scan that into the little E frames and then put the E frames up on the wall and let consumers flick through and look for the thing that they want to.

David Roman [00:38:03]:

That is that wall of nobody looks at them. But the wall is, I think, impactful.

Lucas Underwood [00:38:11]:

It is.

John Firm [00:38:12]:

I have a notebook that's two inches thick with all the certificates I've taken over my life, and it's always set out in the lobby for years.

David Roman [00:38:20]:

You got to put it on the wall, dear.

Mike Cleary [00:38:22]:

Yeah. In the bathroom?

David Roman [00:38:24]:

No, not in the.

John Firm [00:38:27]:

So I tape it closed with clear tape just to see if somebody would open it. It sat there for three months. Nobody touched it. Nobody opened it. Nobody broke the seal.

Lucas Underwood [00:38:39]:

Like I said, I'm going to put them up. Each technician is going to have their own digital picture frame, and it's going to scroll.

David Roman [00:38:46]:

But you got to have the wall, though. So if you have three technicians, you're going to have three plaques. No, we want like 18 plaques, bro.

Lucas Underwood [00:38:55]:

At this point, every wall in my office would be covered.

David Roman [00:38:59]:

Yeah, exactly.

Lucas Underwood [00:39:01]:

The impact, my problem is wiping those frames down.

David Roman [00:39:04]:

I like the idea. I have a cleaning lady. You need a clean lady. Listen, that's what we're going to do at my shop. I like the idea. I'm glad I came up with it.

Lucas Underwood [00:39:14]:

Do you know what his cleaning lady situation is? At 545, Juan goes and picks up the kids. 645 Juan comes back and puts on a maid outfit and cleans the shop. David sits at home and watches on his security.

Mike Cleary [00:39:33]:

I don't think Ase is going to be too happy, this is.

John Firm [00:39:45]:

Jose. Changed the uniform to be.

Lucas Underwood [00:39:47]:

It could be Jose, I guess. No, David said if you'd seen what he did to the bathroom. There's no.

John Firm [00:39:58]:

Fire in the bathroom this morning here. Yeah. So big Oscar and I were talking. The bathrooms closed out. What happened to bathroom? He said, somebody went in and blew it up. And I said, no, you're kidding. And then the lady manager walks by. What happened in the bathroom? Oh, y'all didn't hear about the big fire in there this morning? So somebody tried to burn the bathroom closed.

David Roman [00:40:20]:

They tried to light it.

John Firm [00:40:24]:

All. Yeah.

David Roman [00:40:25]:

Huh.

John Firm [00:40:25]:

And Oscar was talking about, they blew it up. But no, they set it a.

Lucas Underwood [00:40:30]:

My thing is that you boys behind you better watch out. He's on camera and everything. But my thing is, this is kind of like that episode of King of the Hill with Man with the terrible smell. Do you ever watch that episode? Yeah, the Ludafisk. Bobby Hill. Do I look like Peter? You shaved. You would.

John Firm [00:40:53]:

That's why it's not shaved.

Lucas Underwood [00:40:57]:

As long as you don't act like you will be. All right. So kind of shift gears here. You've been very vocal about training events, and so, man, we've been harping on training events and saying, we need to have training events, especially in California. I get a lot of feedback. I mean, a lot. Hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people saying, why is there nothing in know?

David Roman [00:41:20]:

We've talked to your local representatives. I have to have a fee for an air compressor. Therefore, you imagine the costs of having to put on a show on in California. Sounds awful. The 85th politician that calls me, regulatory office that calls me and says, hey, you didn't get this fee for what? For AV systems. I have to have a fee for AV. See, it's in this regulatory code here that we wrote out. We just passed a law two years ago.

Mike Cleary [00:41:51]:

You need to run for president.

Lucas Underwood [00:41:53]:

He should.

David Roman [00:41:54]:

President.

John Firm [00:41:54]:

That would be awesome. No, I would love to help you get that accomplished.

Lucas Underwood [00:41:58]:

I think we could get there. That would be worse. Job of the whole.

David Roman [00:42:05]:

Job. If COVID taught us anything, it's that local races have the most impact.

John Firm [00:42:11]:

Amen.

David Roman [00:42:13]:

I'm sitting in the. I don't know where you stand on some of this, but hold on tight. I'm sitting watching the Johnson County Board decide on whether they were going to force my children to wear masks in school. My little cutie patootie kids with a dirty face mask on their faces the entire day. And there are five people on the board, three of them. We knew how they were going to go. One dissented. He goes, I don't think we should do this, but I also don't want the schools closed.

David Roman [00:42:57]:

And then one just went, ham, and she's pulling out studies and they're doing this. And they had contacted a doctor who just kept harping on these masks, by the way, in case everybody wanted to know, the masking thing has now been refuted absolutely, without any doubt, even though there were plenty of studies already out there. And the metaanalysis Cochrane just put out there, which is the gold standard of metaanalysis, said, hey, turns out does make a difference because we already knew that. But whatever the politicians wanted to feel as though they were doing something, and rather than say, hey, we're not going to close down the schools because this is absurd and there's no threat to children and Yada yada, and it's 2021, what are we still doing? They decided that they were going to vote. These idiots were going to vote to have my children wear masks. So now I could care less. I mean, it does impact me when the presidency does impact me when he tells the IRS to form an associate. I got to mention this.

David Roman [00:44:09]:

In every podcast, they're forming an entire committee to go after pass through entities. In other words, they're targeting us, LLC, single owner LLCs and stuff like that. So it does impact us. But, man, those local races are so much more impactful because if I had been more vocal about making sure that we voted in the right person, that could have been the swing vote to then tip the scales that, hey, my kids no longer had to wear masks. And yeah, they're going to private school, but they had to follow the county guidelines, and so they were forced to wear masks, these dirty masks, which now we've seen the impact, and it affects children's ability to learn facial cues. And now we have kids that don't understand facial cues or they're behind developmentally on speaking, what's wrong with these people? All because the turnout on national races is always twice what it is on local races. Nobody gives two flips about the local races. Nobody.

John Firm [00:45:14]:

But that's where it is.

David Roman [00:45:15]:

It's so much more impactful. Yeah, it affects the everyday. That was my end of my. Sorry.

Lucas Underwood [00:45:22]:

One of the local politicians, not local state politicians that I know, he said, I don't know if the folks in North Carolina got together and just decided they were going to be smart about things or if it just played out that way. He said, I have no clue, but he said it was pretty much a little here, a little there. And he said. So every race played out to where it was fair and balanced, he said. But as fair and balanced as it could get. He said you had dissenting opinions on either side. And he said, at the end of the day, he said, if nothing else, he said, damn it, it was gridlocked. And he said so neither party could make bad decisions that the other had to live with.

Lucas Underwood [00:45:58]:

He said, we were locked right down the middle.

David Roman [00:46:01]:

I don't know why people get upset with gridlock. He didn't do anything while he was in office. That's great. That's great.

John Firm [00:46:11]:

Left it alone.

Lucas Underwood [00:46:13]:

We've already messed it up enough. How much worse could it get? Let's try.

David Roman [00:46:17]:

They always screw it up. They make it worse. I know you Californians don't necessarily believe that. The next one.

John Firm [00:46:24]:

He's probably the last Republican in California.

Mike Cleary [00:46:27]:

Yeah.

John Firm [00:46:28]:

We're trying to get Oscar to move a little closer.

Mike Cleary [00:46:33]:

The last Republican?

John Firm [00:46:34]:

Yeah.

Mike Cleary [00:46:37]:

Sounds like a movie.

David Roman [00:46:39]:

You know who the greatest president of all time was? Grover Cleveland.

Lucas Underwood [00:46:43]:

Wow.

David Roman [00:46:45]:

They had a depression. Did you know they had a depression while he was president? You know what he did?

Lucas Underwood [00:46:49]:

No. What?

David Roman [00:46:49]:

Nothing. Guess what happened?

Lucas Underwood [00:46:53]:

Nothing.

David Roman [00:46:53]:

The economy bounced right back. They had a depression as bad as the Great Depression while Grover Cleveland was president. And he did absolutely nothing. And the newspapers were. They were hounding them. You got to do something. Look how bad the economy is. You got to do something he didn't do.

David Roman [00:47:13]:

Jack, guess what?

Lucas Underwood [00:47:15]:

What?

David Roman [00:47:16]:

The economy was just fine. It bounced right back to the levels it was before and kept growing. Grove of Cleveland. Now you know.

Lucas Underwood [00:47:24]:

Now I know. Did you know that?

David Roman [00:47:27]:

No.

Lucas Underwood [00:47:27]:

Yeah, me either. Did you care?

John Firm [00:47:30]:

Yeah, I did.

David Roman [00:47:31]:

I like him.

John Firm [00:47:32]:

Yeah.

David Roman [00:47:33]:

You're out. He's in.

John Firm [00:47:34]:

That's important stuff.

David Roman [00:47:36]:

I follow stuff now. It's the J. L. Show.

Lucas Underwood [00:47:38]:

Yeah. Boys. I don't think old Buckley could handle me.

John Firm [00:47:42]:

He could not.

Lucas Underwood [00:47:44]:

Jess a nice.

John Firm [00:47:48]:

So he text that to me and what do you think? What's going on? I said, got. No.

David Roman [00:47:55]:

Was it about Grover Cleveland? No.

John Firm [00:48:01]:

Was it an email or letter or text or whatever? I said, he loves you. Somebody said something, but he's not in.

David Roman [00:48:11]:

Love with you, right?

Lucas Underwood [00:48:13]:

How often do you say that about yourself?

John Firm [00:48:15]:

He's sharing information with you is what he's doing. He's looking out for you is what I told him. But I'm a history buff. I like history.

David Roman [00:48:24]:

Yeah.

John Firm [00:48:25]:

I study Western history. I could tell you a lot of cool things about Texas, Oklahoma, Colorado, New Mexico. And the way it's developed and way it's put in place. I like that kind of stuff. Financial decisions. Financial things that took place are not what I buff on.

Lucas Underwood [00:48:42]:

What's the coolest piece of history you can think of?

John Firm [00:48:46]:

Oh, you just blew me away. There's so much cool stuff out there.

David Roman [00:48:50]:

I think it's all fascinating.

John Firm [00:48:51]:

I love the way Richard King developed the King Ranch. Richard King was a stole away nobody, not a person in anybody's radar, on a ship, on flat bottom boats on a Mississippi. And a captain took a lichen to him. I mean, this is a guy that had Nothing, Orphan, he had no family and took likened to him and taught him how to drive flat bottoms. And there was an opportunity when the war was taking place between Texas and Mexico to bring supplies up the Rio Grande River. And he was able to scrounge up enough money with a partnership and bring the flat bottom boats up the river to supply the military with what they needed. And through that transition, there was the Spanish land grant and the Spanish land grabs, and he was able to play on that and he was able to buy land from different. So in Texas right now, this very minute, is a lot of things going on from that decade.

John Firm [00:49:58]:

Do you really own the land or did you steal the land?

Lucas Underwood [00:50:02]:

That's crazy.

John Firm [00:50:02]:

And there's people and lawyers that are involved in this, and this blows up real big. You like the movie called Yellowstone and how they're always trying to steal his land that's going on right now with the King Ranch.

David Roman [00:50:15]:

Really?

John Firm [00:50:16]:

Yes. From back in the land grant days.

Lucas Underwood [00:50:18]:

So really interesting.

David Roman [00:50:20]:

Hold on. Sorry. Just really quick. So they're going back to documents from the 18 hundreds and going, hey, go before that. Before that?

John Firm [00:50:31]:

Yes.

David Roman [00:50:33]:

When did Texas fight the Mexicans?

John Firm [00:50:35]:

No, the land grants were from Spain. Spaniard Grants.

David Roman [00:50:40]:

Okay.

John Firm [00:50:41]:

Then when Texas took over, those were null and void. No, they honored them.

David Roman [00:50:47]:

Okay.

John Firm [00:50:48]:

But they wanted Texas people to take them over. And Richard King wasn't from Texas. He was from Mississippi, and he was just driving a boat. And he moved here to put his residency in Texas, so he had no.

David Roman [00:50:59]:

Legitimacy to the claim.

John Firm [00:51:03]:

There's all kind of screaming and hollering about the Spanish land grants around King Ranch down south of it all down in that part of the country. Yes, sir. There's all kinds of crazy. It's being fought in courts right now.

Lucas Underwood [00:51:16]:

That's crazy. So the end of the Andy Andrews seven decisions video that's on YouTube, he talks about the law of codependence, right? The butterfly effect. And so he goes through a series of, like five or six people, and he goes one by one by one, and he says, well, this person was credited with saving the lives of 2 billion people. And he says, yeah, but it wasn't really that person. It was this person who did this, which impacted their life 50 years prior? He says, well, yeah, but it probably wasn't actually that person that saved the 2 billion people. It was actually this person. And he goes back over 150 years and says, the decision of One person over 150 years ago affected our world as we know it today in a massive way. Your life has been 100% impacted by the decision One person made 150 years ago.

Lucas Underwood [00:52:16]:

Not the people that were around them, not the people who lived at that time, but you and me have a different Life because of something they did. That's fascinating to me. Yeah. And so he, I mean, he lays it out, like, to the T exactly who did what and how in the.

David Roman [00:52:31]:

Most awful way ever. Because I hate that Video. You ever heard that? You never heard that somebody say.

Lucas Underwood [00:52:42]:

That.

David Roman [00:52:43]:

The only reason why you exist is because, like, 1024 People decided to procreate and you were a result of 1024 People? You ever heard that kind of phraseology?

Lucas Underwood [00:52:55]:

It's neat the way he lays it out in the Video you hate.

David Roman [00:52:57]:

I'm sure it's.

Lucas Underwood [00:53:03]:

That.

David Roman [00:53:03]:

And I cannot say that when he.

Lucas Underwood [00:53:05]:

Says things like that. I take great solace in the fact that I know how many people Email me and be like, you know, you're a nice guy, but David's real ass. It makes me feel a lot better about things.

John Firm [00:53:15]:

You know, Jeff says the same thing about me, so I'm good with that.

David Roman [00:53:18]:

David, there's no way he says that about you. I'm intentionally mean to tell nobody else's.

John Firm [00:53:24]:

Right. I understand. But Jeff tells.

Lucas Underwood [00:53:26]:

No, thanks. You understand?

John Firm [00:53:27]:

Yeah. People love Jeff so much more than they love. It's because you're so know.

Lucas Underwood [00:53:33]:

That's what he tells me.

David Roman [00:53:35]:

Who tells you that?

John Firm [00:53:36]:

Jeff.

Lucas Underwood [00:53:37]:

Jeff.

John Firm [00:53:41]:

He's so. You know, people just come out of the woodwork to tell him they love him, and I don't. They, Mike, you've seen it today.

Mike Cleary [00:53:50]:

He calls me and asked, too, and I just said, heavy on the mister. Yeah, and I'm okay with that. Go with respect.

John Firm [00:53:58]:

That's all I ask.

Lucas Underwood [00:54:00]:

Look, all I'm going to say is I'm worried about the future of this show and this podcast.

John Firm [00:54:06]:

The number, the 1% top podcast in the world.

Lucas Underwood [00:54:11]:

Yeah, I'm really worried about it.

David Roman [00:54:13]:

I don't know who gave him that stat. It's 2%. It's the top 2%. Yeah, we're in the top two hang on.

Lucas Underwood [00:54:18]:

Look, I'm worried because as we age and we get up there with you boys, right. I just don't want to be like you two. Snuggling, man. I hear y'all share a twin bed and I mean, I know that you get more. I'm getting a visual when you get up there in years. I know you get more comfortable. David, I'm never sharing a twin bed with you, buddy. Okay.

Lucas Underwood [00:54:48]:

I'm not doing it.

David Roman [00:54:48]:

I'm the outside spoon.

John Firm [00:54:50]:

Outside Spoon.

Mike Cleary [00:54:54]:

Boy.

Lucas Underwood [00:54:57]:

So who's the outside spoon?

John Firm [00:55:00]:

I am. I'm going there right away.

Lucas Underwood [00:55:05]:

As long as we keep Candace between.

John Firm [00:55:07]:

Us, there'll be three in that bed.

David Roman [00:55:16]:

This is why we bring them on. Damn.

Lucas Underwood [00:55:20]:

Twin size bed. You're going to have to have a ratchet strap.

John Firm [00:55:22]:

Keep everybody on thinking a four inch one. It's pretty good. Old boy in that bed. They put me off in that bed, it'd be like a bunch of wildcats. There's more visual.

Lucas Underwood [00:55:41]:

Oh, my God.

John Firm [00:55:42]:

I hope you're going to cut all that out. Probably not. But you don't edit nothing.

Lucas Underwood [00:55:48]:

Yeah, I guess we got to do another episode with Mike Cleary talking about how he hates training associations.

David Roman [00:55:54]:

No, I agree with him. He said it was also a cash grab. He's probably right. Then dude was talking to you up.

Mike Cleary [00:55:59]:

At the line and he's like.

David Roman [00:56:03]:

Not this one.

Mike Cleary [00:56:05]:

Not all trade associations.

Lucas Underwood [00:56:07]:

Yeah.

Mike Cleary [00:56:09]:

For instance, let me just throw this out there. And I mentioned this to you yesterday, right? I've been doing training a long time. There's three organizations that, when I put a proposal in, have not tried to nickel and dime me on price, not asked me to edit a class to fit their window so they could jam more butts in the seats and asked me to change the material content. And it's him, you guys, and Mary Steele. And I mean that as a compliment. And I've taught it all, the big ones.

Lucas Underwood [00:56:39]:

Here's what I'll tell you about this. About ASTA. Mike Allen is the incoming president. Now, Mark Ponds is the current president and we merged the independent garage owners of North Carolina and the North Carolina Tire Dealers association together. And so we've got board members from both. And when we merged, the overarching thing was we don't care about anything else aside from helping shops become more successful. How do we do that? What do we do now? Mark came in and Mark created the structure and the substance of this organization to where it could be sustainable and it could live on and it can do what it's supposed to do. But Mike.

Lucas Underwood [00:57:24]:

And we're all very appreciative of Mark. He is a top notch business operator and he operated this organization very, very well. And he has created a rock solid foundation for us moving forward. But Mike is special, okay?

John Firm [00:57:38]:

He is.

Lucas Underwood [00:57:39]:

And I'm not just saying that Mike is special. And the reason Mike is special is because he grew up in this organization. His dad was one of the very first members. This organization, this will be its 64th show. And Mike came to me and he said, lucas, he said, for me, this is not about being president. For me, this is not about having a big show or gaining power as an association. He said, I want other people in this industry to have the opportunity that I had. He said, I came up in this association, I learned how to be a businessman, and I've been successful because of what this association has done for me.

Lucas Underwood [00:58:21]:

It created success in my family. He said, it has given me a gift of overwhelming success and security in my life. And he said, my goal, my thing. There go my employees. Back behind you. My goal, my thing is I am going to create opportunities for the next generation of shop owner, the next generation of technician, the next generation of service advisor to find that success. That is what I'm going to do. It does not matter how we do it.

Lucas Underwood [00:58:50]:

It's not about making money. It's not about making the balance sheet look good. And obviously we have to do that. That's our obligation.

John Firm [00:58:56]:

But you're not chasing money has nothing.

Lucas Underwood [00:58:59]:

To do with money.

Mike Cleary [00:59:00]:

That's what I was.

John Firm [00:59:01]:

You're focused on your membership. You're focused on what Your call is. You're not focused on money.

Mike Cleary [00:59:08]:

Exactly.

John Firm [00:59:10]:

That's so important in my life.

Lucas Underwood [00:59:12]:

Amen.

David Roman [00:59:13]:

The reason why the conferences have turned into that, though, or are. That is because they cannot make money any other way. This is the only way they can generate revenue. And so it turns into I can get this many people in the seats and if I just lower my expenses out, we can put this money much into the bank. Right? And it's because they are just not providing the value to the members. That's all it is. Because you join these organizations and they do provide a lot of benefits, which is great. But at the end of the day, what's missing as a small independent repair shop owner, I think is the networking, the connection, the camaraderie that's nonexistent.

David Roman [01:00:06]:

It's just that you join an association, they send you a plaque, and then that's it, blah, blah. And then you'll get the occasional email and it's like, oh, we got your training. It's like, okay, my technicians don't want to go to night training. I'm sorry, they don't want to go to night training. They don't want to go to training on Saturday. They do like these events. The events are fun, but I'm only doing maybe one or two a year tops, right? Because I have to shut down my shop and that's not viable. So maybe I like the whole, I'll take one technician to an event.

David Roman [01:00:39]:

And the only reason why I'm even going to these events, so many of them is because of the podcast. So that's not necessarily viable for a lot of shop owners. I don't know what the solution is, but you don't see these association people showing up to your shop to introduce themselves. Take a look at your shop. How can we help? Can we introduce you to people? They were, you guys were, you guys.

Lucas Underwood [01:01:10]:

Were going shop door to Mike, some of the first orders of business, and not even just Mike. These were already in place. But we're going to have orientation for new members that teach them how to use the programs. And we've built programs, not just like, oh, you get a discount on your uniforms, we built programs. Okay, here's where you get your rebates from NAPA. Here's where you get your rebates from Advanced auto parts. And here's your contact. For this person.

Lucas Underwood [01:01:36]:

You have problems, let us know. We'll work on it. And so they do Zoom meetings and they connect them with those people that are able to help them and able to get the money. Right. So it doesn't cost them to be part of this. It's giving them money back. And here's the thing is, how do associations make money? Well, they have programs where they get percentages of that money back.

John Firm [01:01:54]:

Exactly.

Lucas Underwood [01:01:55]:

Through those programs. So the more people they get on them, the more profitable the association is. So therefore the association can then provide more content for never. And we work with a lot of different associations because of the show. I have never seen a group like this. I mean, guys, we come down here to Raleigh to go to a training event. Rena from Empowered advisor came down, right. And everybody was here.

Lucas Underwood [01:02:22]:

And everybody's like, well, I didn't even know you were coming. Guys that aren't even service advisors. Yes, coming saying, hey, we just want to hang out with our friends and our family, or friends and our family. Yeah, you guys are my family. Nobody else understands what I go through on a daily basis. And because you guys are here I want to be here and talk to you. I want to share my struggles with you. I want to tell you about the things I've been going through.

Lucas Underwood [01:02:41]:

I want to be part of this. And so that camaraderie is unbelievable. When you see how in depth it is here in this association in North Carolina, it's unbelievable.

John Firm [01:02:52]:

You don't have this at any other event in America, anywhere. And like you, and not just because the show, I go to a lot of trade shows and I take my team to a lot of trade shows. But you don't have the experience of Aste anyplace else, any other event. I've never seen it.

Lucas Underwood [01:03:15]:

Yeah, it's a one in a million thing. And I think it's really because the generation after generation after generation of people that are here, and this is about being something bigger and being something better and caring and actually caring about the output. Not just words, not just lip service, not just, we're here to make money and grow a bigger show so we can earn more money. It's because the people who are running this organization have a genuine interest.

David Roman [01:03:45]:

I think that's true because there's a lot of organizations out there. I think that's true for a lot of organizations. I think that they've lost that connection to the Joe Blow shop owner. Does that make sense?

Mike Cleary [01:04:06]:

Like Ase, some of them have lost sight of the bigger picture.

David Roman [01:04:09]:

They've lost sight of the bigger picture members. And it turns into, I'm going to pile more benefits, more benefits. I'm going to get more training. More training. And it's not necessarily, and they put on events and stuff like just, I don't know. It's hard to quantify.

Lucas Underwood [01:04:27]:

And we've talked about this many times. I rode on a plane back from Cecil's one time in Utah and made it almost back to Charlote. And the man in the seat beside me is a business coach. And he says, hey, what do you do? So we're talking back and forth, and I said, well, I was actually out attending some business training. And he said, well, what kind of work you in? I explained the whole deal and I said, well, who do you coach? You say you're a business coach. Who do you coach? He said, I coach Fortune 500 companies. I said, oh, that's cool. And so we start talking, and I realize is that I buy products from a lot of the companies he coaches, I mean, multibillion dollar organizations.

Lucas Underwood [01:05:04]:

And I said, well, what is it that you, because all the coaches that we know, they have fundamentals but they all teach very different things. And he said, well, he said in Fortune 500 Realms, we don't have broad focuses. He said, because we coach so many of these companies, focusing on what they do is unlikely to be beneficial for them. We focus on who they are and the culture of the company and what it is that that company means. What do they stand for? And so we're talking about it. And he said, you know, he said, lucas, he saiD, the problem is they have become so focused on KPIS that they've become blinded to the culture and the purpose of the organization. And he said, without culture and purpose, they do not have a business anymore. He said, it's only a matter of time because it begins to unwind.

Lucas Underwood [01:05:54]:

He's like it's pulling a thread, a string out of something, a garment, and it's unraveling because as you pull it out, that culture, there's no substance to the fabric or the structure of the business. So you have to have the culture, you have to have that thing that ties it all together. KPIS won't do that. Profit won't do that. Numbers won't do that.

John Firm [01:06:16]:

Money won't do that.

Lucas Underwood [01:06:17]:

Exactly. And so I thought that was so pivotal. And it's so important to mention, because when we talk about this organization, that is what's made this organization successful. They said, well, the money's great and all, but let's spend it on our members. The money's great and all, but we don't have to have that to be successful. We define what success is. And success is helping shop owners.

Mike Cleary [01:06:42]:

Yeah, I think some of those associations have lost their focus. I mean, John and I have talked about this when John was with ASA Texas and my early days as a trainer, and I can't tell you how many times. And I know probably you're referencing the Facebook post that me and Kevin McCartney were on. And I think some of the organizations have looked at their organization as a. I mean, I realize they got bills to pay and they need to make money, but they've lost focus on what they're supposed to be doing, and they're looking at the organization as a profit center now. Like this event here. I'm sure you all. Yeah, you got to make money.

Mike Cleary [01:07:25]:

You got to pay your bills because you are going to have bills, but they're looking at making better.

Lucas Underwood [01:07:31]:

Turn around and smile. I don't mean to interrupt you, but that's all right.

Mike Cleary [01:07:35]:

Those guys are going to hate me after they watch this, and I'm okay with that, too, but I've asked certain entities that they're like, well, why don't you provide the training at a discounted rate to your members? What happened to you serving the needs of your membership instead of just turning your event into a profit center for your organization? Because they'll ask me, well, we want a discount because you need to give back to the industry. I've done plenty of free training. My give back to the industry basket is empty for the rest of my life. Right. And I guess because I was a business owner, I had a shop I just recently sold, and now I'm doing this. If there's one word I can't stand, it's free.

John Firm [01:08:29]:

Amen.

Lucas Underwood [01:08:30]:

Amen, budy. Amen.

Mike Cleary [01:08:31]:

It's free.

Lucas Underwood [01:08:32]:

Very good. Good.