Changing The Industry Podcast

David Roman [00:00:06]:
Are you happy with the clap?

Lucas Underwood [00:00:07]:
Yes. That was a good clap.

David Roman [00:00:08]:
Make you a little bit better.

Lucas Underwood [00:00:09]:
Yeah.

David Roman [00:00:11]:
Hi, ma'am.

Dori Epstein [00:00:12]:
Hello, gentlemen.

David Roman [00:00:13]:
How are you?

Dori Epstein [00:00:14]:
I'm great.

Lucas Underwood [00:00:15]:
Very good. I thought that was the last podcast.

David Roman [00:00:18]:
No. Oh, we're gonna do a really cool one.

Dori Epstein [00:00:21]:
Are you disappointed? You look a little disappointed.

Lucas Underwood [00:00:23]:
I'm a little tired.

Dori Epstein [00:00:24]:
I can understand.

David Roman [00:00:25]:
We've just got one more after this and we'll be good.

Lucas Underwood [00:00:27]:
You serious?

David Roman [00:00:28]:
Yeah.

Lucas Underwood [00:00:28]:
You're messing with me.

David Roman [00:00:29]:
Nope.

Lucas Underwood [00:00:30]:
You're doing that one solo.

David Roman [00:00:31]:
No, I was going to let you do it solo. My back hurts.

Lucas Underwood [00:00:34]:
Yeah, well, there you go. See?

David Roman [00:00:36]:
Introduce yourself.

Dori Epstein [00:00:38]:
I am. I'm Dori Epstein. I am with the Institute. I am a senior business advisor and I get to do cool stuff like co facilitate with Michael Smith on the High Performance group. I run the strategic masterminds that we're launching that we're currently running in Portland and Southern California. I'm working with him to develop more material for extended leadership intensives to really help the people. Going beyond helping you and your business, but really going deeper into helping people be the best that they can be.

David Roman [00:01:14]:
And you've got automotive experience too, through a brother, right?

Dori Epstein [00:01:19]:
Indirect. Through osmosis. I have a twin brother who owns three and a half shops in Southern California.

David Roman [00:01:25]:
Yep. He's been part of our little crew of Facebook friends for years, I think, right?

Dori Epstein [00:01:31]:
I would think so, yeah. John Epstein, John's Automotive Care, San Diego.

David Roman [00:01:36]:
Absolutely.

Dori Epstein [00:01:37]:
He's really involved in the industry battle with names. It's okay. We don't look anything alike. So.

David Roman [00:01:46]:
Okay. So I went to leadership intensive in San Diego a while back. Really interesting experience. And I really think that if there's one thing that you could talk about that sets the Institute apart from everybody else, it's this concept of developing from the ground up a culture, an organization, a belief system within this organization that leads it and guides it and takes it somewhere. Right.

Dori Epstein [00:02:13]:
A belief system. I like that. Yes.

David Roman [00:02:14]:
And so that's unique. And I've talked to Jimmy and Kent and everybody else about that. That is because, like, you talk to everybody and you look at these coaching groups and you look at these coaching companies and all of them, what do they do? They come to you and they give you, like, information and they say, here's the information. You do this and the business will be successful and it will be. Right. Like the numbers do make you successful. Not saying they're not, but the problem is a how do you do that without losing what's important about yourself in the process? Right. Because there's things you like about you.

David Roman [00:02:47]:
There's beliefs you have, there's ethics and morals and things that you've been taught your entire life. And those things are important to you. And so some coaching companies don't do a very good job of making sure that stays intact and that you understand and define what that is. Right. And secondly, it's very much, hey, I'm going to tell you what to do and go do it. Right. It's never about from the ground up developing something that you can a help the people within your organization develop as human beings. Right.

David Roman [00:03:18]:
Because like we talk about the technician shortage, we talk about the hiring crisis that we're seeing. Well, is it possible that some of that is because we've not done a good job of taking care of people in the first place?

Dori Epstein [00:03:30]:
Oh, absolutely. That absolutely drives that. And we know that. We know that the shops who are really focused on their culture and their employees, that they have. They have people knocking on their doors.

David Roman [00:03:42]:
Yeah, for sure.

Dori Epstein [00:03:43]:
Looking for work, wanting, not just looking for work. That's the difference. They're looking for a career. They're not looking for a job. They want a career with this company. Because this company knows how to take care of its people. And its people means employees, vendors, as well as the customer who needs their car fixed.

David Roman [00:04:02]:
This is the first time that I know of that a coaching organization in our space has started with the people. Right.

Dori Epstein [00:04:09]:
Me too.

David Roman [00:04:10]:
Has started at the focus of like, hey, let's start at the very bottom and build this from the ground up. Let's build a foundation underneath these organizations. Let's not just say, here's the numbers, go do this and you'll be successful. Let's talk about how do we build the foundation so they're successful and sustainable and this can work long term. Right. It's the first time I've ever seen that. I know there's plenty that will say that they do that.

Dori Epstein [00:04:32]:
Right.

David Roman [00:04:32]:
This is the first time I've ever seen it done.

Dori Epstein [00:04:34]:
And you want to know something cool?

David Roman [00:04:35]:
What's that?

Dori Epstein [00:04:36]:
That the shop owners will connect with is that when they pay attention to their people and they are building it from their why, their mission, their purpose, that. And they're incorporating emotional intelligence, they're incorporating culture, aspects of culture that really matter, then they're going to drive their revenue. So it's going to, yes, you're going to continue to grow if you're just muddling along, if you're muddling along with the numbers, et cetera. But if you focus on emotional intelligence, in your people, then that jumps to 20%. Harvard Business Review showed that it could jump up to 34% increase in revenue. Because you are taking care of your people. Because what happens when you take care of your people? They are more innovated, they are more creative, they are more engaged.

David Roman [00:05:25]:
Right.

Dori Epstein [00:05:25]:
And so you're going to get a much greater return on your investment when you do invest in focusing on culture and leadership development.

David Roman [00:05:35]:
Well, I mean, you go back to what Dan said yesterday, that the why is stronger than the why not.

Dori Epstein [00:05:39]:
Absolutely.

David Roman [00:05:40]:
Right. And if you don't. If we don't understand that, we don't take stock of that at some point. Right. And, you know, I just found myself in this stupid situation where I'm doing something other than just running my shop. And. And it's interesting for me. And I shared that in the class.

David Roman [00:05:56]:
Right. Like, because I saw a lot of people impacted from a lot of different areas. And the way that. That the culture in the business that they work for has impacted them and what. It's changed for them. And I was thinking about it. You know, I come into this business that had a real cultural problem. And so I've done surveys.

David Roman [00:06:13]:
I might even share them with you, just so you can see.

Dori Epstein [00:06:16]:
I'd love to see it.

David Roman [00:06:17]:
And it's like questions about, why do you think we're here? Like, what do you think we do here? Right. What's the purpose? And what makes you feel good about coming to work in the morning? What makes you feel like you're a part of something? And if you told somebody about the best part of your job, what would it be? And it was so crazy because everybody came back with, like, I'm here to get a paycheck. Now, wait a minute. That doesn't. That's not a very fulfilling life.

Dori Epstein [00:06:44]:
That's also the difference between extrinsic and intrinsic motivation. If you really want your employees to be motivated, it has to come from a why. It has to come from inside.

David Roman [00:06:54]:
Yeah. Because you can't force motivation on somebody. No, it won't work.

Dori Epstein [00:06:58]:
No. Sports. In the world of sports, a professional athlete who gets a big raise, if you will, and all of a sudden, they're making way more money than they were. Their performance almost always, if not always, drops off significantly because the motivation has changed. It's not about the love of the game anymore. Now it's about, oh, man, I'm making all this money.

David Roman [00:07:18]:
Yeah.

Dori Epstein [00:07:18]:
And that motivation is from the outside.

David Roman [00:07:20]:
And money was, what, like, 12th on the list as far as motivators. Or something like that.

Dori Epstein [00:07:25]:
Yeah.

David Roman [00:07:25]:
What was number one? Do you remember?

Dori Epstein [00:07:27]:
No, I don't. I want to say it has something to do with what we're talking about, that there is a sense of purpose, that there is the engagement that they feel, that they matter, that they are heard, that they are contributing. So Aaron woods talked about that. It's. You want to get the weigh in before you get the buy in, meaning that you're getting people to weigh in to what's happening in the business and when they are weighing in, that they feel that they matter and that they're a part of something bigger than themselves. There's purpose there built into that process, built into that kind of culture.

David Roman [00:08:03]:
This is. This is unique because nobody has ever brought psychology into the automotive space.

Dori Epstein [00:08:13]:
Yes, right.

David Roman [00:08:14]:
And you've got a little bit of a psychology background, a huge psychology background. And. And so tell us a little bit about that, because I. I think it's important for everybody to know who we're talking to and why that this particular class and what you do in this organization is very different than what everybody else does.

Dori Epstein [00:08:30]:
I am so excited because I have a master's degree in clinical psychology. I've taught at the college and university level for over a decade. I've been. I like to say I've been a life coach since the second grade. That this is just a part of who I am. And my brother, I've watched him grow and evolve over the decades in his business and wanting to be a part of that and seeing a need and trying to find my way in. And then I go and I present at the merger and acquisition group that Michael Smith was running almost two years ago now.

David Roman [00:09:02]:
Right. I remember that. Yeah.

Dori Epstein [00:09:04]:
And he was like, wait a minute, we have so much in common and let's work together. And I'm like, this is awesome, because I love the automotive repair industry because of my brother, having worked with him and done coaching, leadership development with some shop owners along the way and looking for a way to really get into it and have this be my main focus. And so when Michael and I crossed paths and we have this great connection and then the institute and it just all fell together.

David Roman [00:09:32]:
Yeah, it's really cool. And, you know, I've shared a little bit of this with you, but it was interesting because the people in the room weren't necessarily shop owners. Right.

Dori Epstein [00:09:43]:
That's true. At that leadership intensive, you had shop owners and then you had people who were. You had managers, service advisors. You had a little bit of everybody in that room because it's it benefits anybody that's willing to take it.

David Roman [00:09:58]:
Right? Yeah. Not just in a space of automotive, like, in your life. Right. Because, like, Chris came back and he was like, hey, I've got some work to do. Right. Like, I've got some as a father and as a husband, I've got some things to do here.

Dori Epstein [00:10:13]:
My favorite is when I'm working with clients, I'm helping them be better in their work. And I have one client that called me up and said, hey, no, next time you're here. My wife wants to go out to dinner, the three of us. I said, okay, that's great. And we go out to dinner. And she says, I just want to thank you, because my husband is a different husband and a better father. And that's what gets me the most excited.

David Roman [00:10:37]:
Well, I mean, I think that what's taught in that class brings awareness. And especially because, you know, my wife is big into love and logic and raising our kids.

Dori Epstein [00:10:48]:
I love that platform.

David Roman [00:10:49]:
Yeah. And so you don't think about those things. Right. And so the same thing like this, when you go through it, you don't think about what we're putting on people's truth tapes.

Dori Epstein [00:10:59]:
Oh, my gosh. Right.

David Roman [00:11:01]:
We don't think about the impact we're having on our children and how we act. Right. Like we say, and we do things and we think it's temporary. And we think, well, I just did this thing and I just had this outburst and I just. Whatever it was, we don't realize that, especially at a young age, we're making impacts that stay with them forever. And they don't even know.

Dori Epstein [00:11:23]:
Look at the world. How they. Yeah, just from the talk this morning from Dr. Krieger.

David Roman [00:11:28]:
Yeah.

Dori Epstein [00:11:29]:
She was talking about experiences and beliefs. So these young kids are having these experiences with their parents, and then they're building their belief system off of those experiences, and that's how we get to the truth tapes that are not serving us.

David Roman [00:11:41]:
Yeah, for sure, for sure. And so, like, dude, we're sitting in this class and all of these people that probably have told their boss about how great of an experience that they have at work begin to pour their heart out about all of these aspects of work that probably are not what they should be and not what they want to be and things that need to be fixed. And probably the most powerful one for me, and David's going to yell at me for this is a particular situation that's probably close to your heart, but one in particular person says, I've been put in this position of responsibility. But I've been given no authority. Right. And I'm like, oh, I kind of do that. Right. I'm really bad for that.

David Roman [00:12:34]:
And. And it's not that I don't give them authority. It's that I give them authority and then I question the authority and then I question the decision that was made and I. You know what I mean?

Dori Epstein [00:12:41]:
Then you start becoming a micromanager.

David Roman [00:12:43]:
Yeah, shut up, David. I mean, it's bad. I. I know that's not helpful.

Dori Epstein [00:12:50]:
Just so you know. It doesn't help. Doesn't help your culture, David.

David Roman [00:12:55]:
Do you help your culture?

Lucas Underwood [00:12:58]:
Oh, my. Hands off. I don't know. I don't mess with it. I don't meddle.

David Roman [00:13:03]:
I'm bad. I do. I meddle a lot. I definitely do. There's no doubt about it.

Lucas Underwood [00:13:08]:
Why does he meddle? You should psychoanalyze him.

Dori Epstein [00:13:10]:
Oh, I can.

David Roman [00:13:12]:
I'm broken.

Dori Epstein [00:13:12]:
Control issues.

Lucas Underwood [00:13:13]:
Control issues.

Dori Epstein [00:13:15]:
I would say that we all are a little broken. I wouldn't say that he's broken. Broken. Based on what I know about him, I do believe that if he wants to change that he can put in the work and he can do it.

Lucas Underwood [00:13:27]:
Yeah, you gotta work on yourself, focus.

Dori Epstein [00:13:29]:
Yeah, but it's a commitment to a practice.

David Roman [00:13:32]:
Yeah.

Dori Epstein [00:13:33]:
It's a lifelong practice of becoming more self aware. And then shifting behavior.

David Roman [00:13:40]:
That's a big takeaway is self aware. Right. Because we have this perspective and we think everybody else has our perspective. And so it's so stupid. When you sit back and really think about it, like, David thinks everybody hates the IRS like he does.

Dori Epstein [00:13:54]:
I'm only laughing because I have this conversation almost every day. I had it this morning with somebody who was really upset because their partner wasn't seeing from their point of view. And I was saying, well, that's because that person brings their all of their own beliefs and experiences to the table. And so they are looking at it through different eyes. Well, why can't people just see it the way that I see it? It's so frustrating because that is. That's people.

David Roman [00:14:22]:
Yeah.

Dori Epstein [00:14:22]:
Every person. Every person.

Lucas Underwood [00:14:24]:
Did they say that out loud and didn't. Like, as soon as they, like, said it went. It doesn't sound right.

Dori Epstein [00:14:32]:
No, because we do tend to think that. Hey, I get it. Why can't you get it?

Lucas Underwood [00:14:38]:
Well, I may say that because the other person is stupid, but. But if it's a matter of opinion, not the irs, that's a fact. But if it's a matter of opinion, you know, you gotta understand, everybody brings their Own paradigms into it. Right. Everybody's got their own mindset and beliefs and whatever, but for the person to sit there and go, I don't. Everybody understands. What are you talking about? That is insane.

Dori Epstein [00:15:13]:
But it's not. Because we come at everything with our own blinders on.

David Roman [00:15:18]:
And over time, we're just big blinders.

Dori Epstein [00:15:21]:
But it's true.

David Roman [00:15:22]:
It is.

Dori Epstein [00:15:23]:
And we don't realize it.

Lucas Underwood [00:15:24]:
I mean, that person didn't realize it, apparently. I would have flicked them in the forehead.

Dori Epstein [00:15:29]:
No, this is a conversation I have all the time.

Lucas Underwood [00:15:33]:
Really.

Dori Epstein [00:15:34]:
And I don't want to bash somebody.

Lucas Underwood [00:15:36]:
I'm glad.

Dori Epstein [00:15:37]:
I want.

Lucas Underwood [00:15:37]:
Oh, I would be all ashaming.

Dori Epstein [00:15:39]:
Yeah. You're not going to take my job. I don't. I'm not worried about that.

Lucas Underwood [00:15:45]:
It would be. It would be my pleasure in life to shame them to the point if I don't have them crying. I did not do my job.

Dori Epstein [00:15:54]:
Yeah. You're definitely not taking over my job.

David Roman [00:15:59]:
I think that because there's a lot of talk of the cognitive behavior therapy method versus a different. Reprogramming your own.

Lucas Underwood [00:16:08]:
Is that like electroshock therapy?

David Roman [00:16:11]:
No.

Lucas Underwood [00:16:12]:
Zap them every time they do something stupid.

David Roman [00:16:14]:
Cognitive behavior therapy is what I went through when I was doing the.

Lucas Underwood [00:16:18]:
Every time you call poor Chris, I'm gonna hook up them little paddles to you. And every time I hear you say something like what?

Dori Epstein [00:16:24]:
I don't understand the thought pattern.

Lucas Underwood [00:16:27]:
Yeah.

Dori Epstein [00:16:27]:
To help you change your behaviors and going deeper.

David Roman [00:16:31]:
Well, so I had this.

Dori Epstein [00:16:33]:
There's value in it.

David Roman [00:16:34]:
I had, like, a really severe anxiety thing and went through. It was really cool because the college that's in our town has an anxiety clinic.

Dori Epstein [00:16:43]:
Oh, that's cool.

David Roman [00:16:44]:
And it's one of the world's leading psychologists for anxiety. And dude travels from university to university and he, like, helped him develop this whole program and managed to get into the program, and it was extremely beneficial. I did not realize that they were teaching me a different way to think. Right. Like. Cause I was upset at the time. I didn't think that. Right.

Dori Epstein [00:17:04]:
Oh, that makes total sense.

David Roman [00:17:05]:
Yeah. I had this perspective, and then by the time it was done, I thought, well, wait a minute. I don't think about that the same way I used to think about that. Right. Like, it reprogrammed the pathway in my brain to see something differently.

Dori Epstein [00:17:16]:
That sounds like a success to me.

David Roman [00:17:18]:
And it was. It worked really well, and it did a lot for me. What do you see that we miss in the business world? Right. Because, like, we. We tend to. We tend to disconnect the human being and we look at them as a number or a piece or a cog in the machine.

Dori Epstein [00:17:36]:
Right. As a revenue source.

David Roman [00:17:37]:
Right. And the problem is, is that we forget and even venture capital and private equity right now is saying, hey, we're not going to buy businesses that aren't human centric.

Dori Epstein [00:17:46]:
Right.

David Roman [00:17:47]:
Because they're not profitable. They don't remain profitable. They might be profitable right now, but they don't remain profitable. If they're not human centric, what are we?

Dori Epstein [00:17:54]:
I would say just a slight correction to that, that they might be profitable. However, if they are human centric, they're going to be exponentially more profitable.

David Roman [00:18:02]:
Well, and if they're not, and if.

Dori Epstein [00:18:03]:
They'Re a mess, like nobody wants to touch a mess.

David Roman [00:18:06]:
Right. Well, and if they're not human centric, what tends to happen when they buy the business is everybody up and walks away.

Dori Epstein [00:18:11]:
Right. Or it falls apart.

David Roman [00:18:12]:
Right.

Dori Epstein [00:18:13]:
Completely.

Lucas Underwood [00:18:13]:
Listen, we have an entire podcast talking about shifting towards robots. I mean, everybody in the business except for one person robot, we don't have to worry about any of this.

Dori Epstein [00:18:26]:
Yeah, good luck with that. Let me know how that works out.

Lucas Underwood [00:18:28]:
Yeah, listen, just saying, you say that now, but you know they've got robots that can clean your house now.

Dori Epstein [00:18:36]:
Yeah, but do they clean it the way you want it cleaned? I'm just saying David doesn't really care.

David Roman [00:18:40]:
If his house is clean, so, I.

Lucas Underwood [00:18:42]:
Mean, yeah, probably they do 70% of it.

David Roman [00:18:45]:
Have you ever seen what happens to one of the little vacuum robots when the dog poops in the floor? Have you ever seen that?

Dori Epstein [00:18:51]:
Yeah, I Bet There's a YouTube video on.

David Roman [00:18:53]:
There's lots of YouTube videos of it. I think I'm gonna miss it because.

Lucas Underwood [00:18:57]:
You'Re supposed to like, you're supposed to pick things up. Like don't, don't leave the dog poop on the floor when, when we call her Sharky. When Sharky gets out there and starts cleaning things up, but they have bigger versions and now they have like walking Robo. You seen the Tesla robots? Like, we are just a few years away from full blown tech robots and they don't have to worry about any of this. Like I don't have to care about their feelings or you're like, you're not heard, robot. Just tighten the lug nuts and that's it.

Dori Epstein [00:19:26]:
Are you married?

Lucas Underwood [00:19:28]:
I am.

Dori Epstein [00:19:28]:
Look, can I get her phone number?

David Roman [00:19:32]:
Listen, she's here, she's here.

Lucas Underwood [00:19:35]:
She'll be like, yeah, yeah, look, she deals with people all day long too. And she works in because you're not.

Dori Epstein [00:19:42]:
Going to marry a robot is the point I'm trying to make.

Lucas Underwood [00:19:44]:
Well, I don't. I mean, not me personally, but there's going to be a lot of people marrying robots. Okay, so you are dead wrong on that one. There's going to be lots of people buying robots for the purposes of marriage.

David Roman [00:20:03]:
Oh my.

Dori Epstein [00:20:04]:
You're not going to be a part of this podcast.

Lucas Underwood [00:20:07]:
I'm saying she has a job where she's got to deal with people. And there were some big policy changes that came down from on high. Big policy changes that all of a sudden shifted some of the initiatives and priorities within the organization. I mean, just overnight, overnight all of these like very feeling centric priorities stopped being that. And they're like, hey, we're gonna squash all of it. All of it is going to the scrapper. Like overnight, just we're scrapping all of it.

David Roman [00:20:48]:
I'm curious what the impact was like.

Lucas Underwood [00:20:50]:
So then it became a line of people outside of her of her office coming in to bitch and moan. Now she put up with the first few bitching and moaning sessions, but by the 15th, complaining about, really like, I feel like, okay, you still have your job, like, go do it. And then the next one it's like, okay, I get it, but this is the new direction. Go do your job. It doesn't impact your job. You haven't lost your job. Just go back. It did change the culture, but the problem was that the culture had shifted more towards nonsense and less towards productivity and performance.

Dori Epstein [00:21:34]:
But did the pendulum swing the pendulum to the other side?

Lucas Underwood [00:21:38]:
Yeah, it did.

Dori Epstein [00:21:38]:
Now completely is ignoring that human centric aspect of a culture. That's not.

David Roman [00:21:43]:
The problem though, is that people drive the human centric. Don't human beings like the leadership? Leadership?

Lucas Underwood [00:21:50]:
It depends on what the priorities are. It depends on what the priorities are because you will have within an organization, high performers, people that are focused on end game, on productivity, on efficiency. They are high performers. And you are alienating those people when all you do is focus on the fifis. If all you care about is the fifis for non performers and you're accommodating non performers, the top performers are going to leave the organization and you're going to have this huge brain drain because of that. And I.

Dori Epstein [00:22:23]:
Top performers are going to leave the organization because why? Because there's.

Lucas Underwood [00:22:26]:
Because you are accommodating and overly. You're overly accommodating to the feelings of people that are mid performers or non performers. Yeah, well, that's just so you can. Well, yeah. And so that's, that's what it came down to, is that they were spending money, time, energy and productivity on nonsense.

Dori Epstein [00:22:48]:
Because that also negatively impacts the culture. Sure. When you're just giving out participation awards, that's not helpful.

Lucas Underwood [00:22:55]:
It turned into that. It turned into like, we are going to. It became about. I'm trying not to get too into the weeds here. But it got to the point where they were placating people just with words, just so they make them feel a certain way without it having any significant impact on their lives, on the organization. But they felt good about hearing the words and getting the awards and having the name on the front of their office, like, you know, this type of manager and stuff like that. And it's like, that's not really a role, dude. Like, that's not anything.

Dori Epstein [00:23:35]:
Not really a human centric culture in the sense of a positive culture, because that's driving a negative culture and it's driving toxicity. Because when the high performers are seeing that these people are being placated and given the participation awards, then it plummets their motivation, their curiosity, their innovation. They feel like, well, what's the point? Why would I do this?

Lucas Underwood [00:24:00]:
I think the balancing act, though, is extremely difficult because I think it's important. Yeah, I think it's impossible. I do. I know. Because you're like, this is what I do every day. I get that. But I'm saying from execution standpoint, you have an organization where you want it to be people focused. And so yeah, you, you make them feel heard and recognized and all of that mushy nonsense.

Lucas Underwood [00:24:38]:
But then, like, it can, it can swing too far. It is a tightrope that you are walking on. Because the minute it swings the other way now the inmates run the asylum.

Dori Epstein [00:24:51]:
However, or if you are driving it in the right way, where you understand what it means to be human centric, where you understand what a high performance culture is and how to create it, you understand emotional intelligence and how it drives leadership, then you are not placating everybody. You are not placating anybody.

Lucas Underwood [00:25:14]:
Sure, right.

Dori Epstein [00:25:15]:
You are helping them to meet goals. And you're also identifying those people that don't belong in a company, that don't belong in the role that they're in. Maybe they can be somewhere else doing something different, different that is better. But you don't hold on to those people that need participation awards or that just pat on the back for nothing.

David Roman [00:25:33]:
That's exactly right. Because that was one of the big points that came out in that. And it's about having hard discussions, too.

Dori Epstein [00:25:41]:
Yes.

David Roman [00:25:42]:
Right. Instead of filtering out the hard discussions, it was really. That class talks about, you need to have the hard discussion. One of the coolest things I took away from it was permission to coach.

Dori Epstein [00:25:52]:
I love.

David Roman [00:25:53]:
Right. I thought that was so cool.

Dori Epstein [00:25:55]:
That came from Cindy and Russ Reason, who own a shop up in Alaska.

David Roman [00:25:59]:
Yeah.

Dori Epstein [00:26:00]:
And I love that. I've been. I've been sharing that with all my clients. Permission to coach.

David Roman [00:26:04]:
And so, like, whether it was. They were talking to the owner, whether they were talking to another person, they would say, hey, permission to coach. In other words, it was a. It was a verbal cue to say, hey, we need to talk about this. And it was almost like saying, hey, I need you to not be defensive. I need you. We need to talk.

Dori Epstein [00:26:19]:
Yes.

David Roman [00:26:20]:
Right. And so they had come up with.

Lucas Underwood [00:26:22]:
If you walked up to me and said, permission to coach like new, and then I would walk away.

Dori Epstein [00:26:29]:
Yeah, See, then you wouldn't be a part of their team. I actually loved it so much because what it did was it just established that this is going to be a conversation that's a matter of fact. I'm going to share some information with you. And the owners have taken it so well that they've created this culture of trust that they feel that they can go to the owner and say, hey, you need to not answer the phones. Hey, you need to not do this. You need to or you don't need.

Lucas Underwood [00:26:54]:
Is that a trust thing? I get yelled at all the time.

Dori Epstein [00:26:57]:
Because you're not. But they're not getting yelled at. That's the thing.

Lucas Underwood [00:26:59]:
No, I'm getting yelled at.

Dori Epstein [00:27:00]:
Who's yelling at you? Who do we need to.

Lucas Underwood [00:27:02]:
My staff.

Dori Epstein [00:27:03]:
Well, okay.

David Roman [00:27:04]:
They. Listen, if you.

Dori Epstein [00:27:06]:
There's a difference between getting. Well, hang on.

Lucas Underwood [00:27:08]:
That hurts my feelings sometimes. They're mean.

Dori Epstein [00:27:11]:
I find that hard to believe.

Lucas Underwood [00:27:12]:
That's true.

David Roman [00:27:13]:
Yeah.

Dori Epstein [00:27:13]:
You want to share? You want to give me some of his background here?

David Roman [00:27:16]:
So listen, there's videos. There's videos. And, like, a lot of people. A lot of people thought that he was being mean to his staff, but all you see is across the shop, he's got a toboggan on, and it's got, like, a little floofy thing on top of it. And you see this thing, like, bouncing back and forth as he's screaming, and, like, things are flying through the shop, and he's just, like, making his way through the shop, screaming and yelling.

Lucas Underwood [00:27:40]:
There was people on there. Like, if you yelled at me like that, I'd walk out like, okay, whatever.

Dori Epstein [00:27:46]:
Anyway, I can see that you and I will not be working together anytime soon.

Lucas Underwood [00:27:52]:
Hurts my feelings, too.

David Roman [00:27:53]:
He probably needs it more than anybody I know, right?

Dori Epstein [00:27:56]:
I don't see him as being open to he.

Lucas Underwood [00:27:59]:
You know what I say? I. You know what I tell. I tell Juan. I'm like, hey, you need to. Because you do want to get. I need you to focus on what I'm about to tell you. So you need to be in the right mindset to receive what it is I'm about to tell you.

David Roman [00:28:12]:
And that's at the end of the day.

Lucas Underwood [00:28:14]:
That's what this is. I would not say permission coaching. I would feel like that is not going to be something that comes out of my mouth.

Dori Epstein [00:28:22]:
What I say is, it works really well for them, right? So you find what works well for you. But the idea is, can I give you some feedback?

Lucas Underwood [00:28:29]:
Is what I say, yeah, can I.

Dori Epstein [00:28:30]:
Give you some feedback?

David Roman [00:28:31]:
Same thing.

Lucas Underwood [00:28:32]:
Can I give you some feedback? You can say, no, I'm okay with the no, because you may not be in the right spot. You're busy. Maybe you're ahead somewhere else. Right? Hey, can I give you some feedback? Can you come back in a few minutes?

David Roman [00:28:41]:
I typically start with a sling. Like this whole slew of expletives. And they know that we need to talk about something.

Lucas Underwood [00:28:48]:
Yeah, I know. I heard you on the phone. Poor Chris. You know what? I don't think you're not mean to Chris. You're mean to Eric. You take it out on poor Eric. Eric takes it. Yeah, but how does he take it?

David Roman [00:29:05]:
He like. Oh, he enjoys it.

Lucas Underwood [00:29:06]:
Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. He. I think he does.

David Roman [00:29:10]:
He's a glutton for punishment.

Lucas Underwood [00:29:11]:
He is a glutton for punishment. Listen, and you gotta. Sometimes for Lucas, he's gotta have that punching bag. And I feel bad for poor Eric, but, you know.

Dori Epstein [00:29:20]:
But do you really feel bad for poor Eric?

Lucas Underwood [00:29:22]:
I do because he's mean to Eric.

Dori Epstein [00:29:24]:
But how does Eric take it when he leaves at the end of the day? Is he creating truth tapes?

Lucas Underwood [00:29:29]:
I think it's a little bit of Stockholm syndrome at this point. It is.

David Roman [00:29:32]:
We have this cross. We have this bi directional thing. He kicks me in the nether region, I kick him in the nether regions. He comes in my office and releases his flatulence in my office, and it runs down his leg, drips on my floor.

Lucas Underwood [00:29:51]:
None of that happens. None of that happens. I have never seen him raise a hand at you. Poor Eric.

David Roman [00:29:58]:
Oh, yeah.

Lucas Underwood [00:29:58]:
I've seen you, though.

Dori Epstein [00:29:59]:
Have you seen him Lift the butt cheek.

David Roman [00:30:01]:
I was on top of a truck one time and like my knees are on the front of the truck and he comes up and just wham, like that. And he's like, I never knew that the payback would last seven years.

Lucas Underwood [00:30:15]:
So like, you know, wow, you gotta know Eric, Eric. I know he listens to these. Eric, you gotta know before you start something, you gotta know the end game. Is this the type of person that is going to like let bygones be bygones and maybe get you back once and hey, we're even now and then just let it go or is this person going to go to the ends of the earth for forever to remind you of that one time you did something to them? And if they're that type of person, leave it alone.

Dori Epstein [00:30:47]:
It's called self awareness and being able to then regulate what you're going to say or do. So knowing that what do I want to have happen here? Do I really want? Do I really want.

Lucas Underwood [00:30:58]:
So you're saying that Eric at no point had enough self awareness to go, hey, I need to.

David Roman [00:31:03]:
It was on his second day. He wouldn't.

Lucas Underwood [00:31:05]:
Yeah, but you knew it. I mean people randos like, you know.

Dori Epstein [00:31:08]:
You gotta know he was not self aware. If he pulls out on you in the first couple of days, then yeah, because what was he expecting? What did he think was gonna happen? He didn't think.

Lucas Underwood [00:31:18]:
Yeah, but I'm sure, I'm sure Lucas was like, was jabbing a little bit and he thought, oh, I got a playful boss. Which Lucas is playful. But the problem is that if you, you do something to Lucas, expect it 8 million times back over and over and over and over. There's no let up. Just that's how he is. And so he's relentless. And so he needed to, at least.

David Roman [00:31:42]:
That video was good.

Lucas Underwood [00:31:44]:
He needed to know like, hey, I gotta. But is this person going to let up? Am I gonna be able. Is it just gonna be a back and forth or is it just gonna be entirely one sided for the next 10 years? That's what he needed to at least consider. Like stop and think.

Dori Epstein [00:32:00]:
Yes, I agree. Stop and think.

David Roman [00:32:02]:
Listen, if you don't want a video of you digging in your rear end and then smelling your hand. No, he didn't post it on Facebook.

Lucas Underwood [00:32:13]:
It wasn't a. He was adjusting his beard. He was like.

Dori Epstein [00:32:20]:
Okay, ladies and gentlemen, I'm sitting here with a couple of 12 year olds.

David Roman [00:32:24]:
Yes you are. You're just now figuring this out.

Dori Epstein [00:32:28]:
Shop owners are 15 minutes ago.

David Roman [00:32:31]:
Shop owners are our 12 year olds, like emotionally and mentally. We're 12 year olds.

Lucas Underwood [00:32:37]:
She's just talking about emotional intelligence.

David Roman [00:32:39]:
Yeah, we don't have any.

Dori Epstein [00:32:40]:
Yes, you do. To at least some degree you do. And then we're going to work on getting more and building more and. But. But I never want you to lose the 12 year old either. Just have fun, enjoy yourself, enjoy life.

David Roman [00:32:52]:
So hold up. Why? Okay, you look at a Dutch. Do you know Dutch?

Dori Epstein [00:33:01]:
No.

David Roman [00:33:02]:
Okay.

Dori Epstein [00:33:02]:
Should I?

David Roman [00:33:03]:
Yeah, probably. Dutch is old school, right? Well, I can't say he's old man. And he's. He's from the Bronx and he was raised in a different world and he flew aircraft in a time when like, hey, this is your job. And there's no exception to that. Right. Your job is to get the people safely from point A to point B. And the way you tie your shoes matter.

David Roman [00:33:30]:
And the way you tie your tie matters. And the way you wear your hat matters. And everything you do matters. And it influences the consumer that's on the airplane. And they see you in a certain way. Right. Hate flying with him. Okay.

David Roman [00:33:43]:
You don't want to fly with him because he's like, he's the guy neurotic.

Lucas Underwood [00:33:46]:
He like looks around and he's like, they're doing that wrong. That wrong. That should be like this, this, like this.

David Roman [00:33:51]:
He's the dude who will drag the captain out of the left seat and tell him that he's not to get on the airplane wearing his hat like that. Right. Like it's a thing. Right. And so we recorded a reel of Dutch at an event a while back. And he said something that I thought was interesting. He says, you know, I live in this world of people who want to hug a tree, but I was raised in a world that it was your job. And he said it didn't matter if the wind was blowing 200 miles an hour.

David Roman [00:34:23]:
It didn't matter if you were low on fuel. It didn't matter how great it was. Your job was to land the plane. And the chief. Yeah. And the chief pilot's not going to give you a pat on the back and say, atta boy, because it was your job. That's what you were supposed to do. Have we lost some of, like, where's it supposed to fall in the middle of that? Because like, us rough and brash shop owners really feel like, hey, I said thank you.

David Roman [00:34:46]:
I gave you a paycheck. Right?

Lucas Underwood [00:34:48]:
The paycheck is the thank you.

Dori Epstein [00:34:50]:
Yeah. We're in a different world. So my brother John, that owns his shops and he and I were raised by. Our dad was born in 1911.

David Roman [00:34:59]:
Oh, wow.

Dori Epstein [00:35:00]:
Yeah. So different world.

David Roman [00:35:03]:
Yeah.

Dori Epstein [00:35:04]:
Era. World war. Eras that he went through. And that's how we were raised. So John was raised. Hey, you should know how. You should know that we're working on this car together. You should know how to do it already.

David Roman [00:35:18]:
Yeah.

Dori Epstein [00:35:19]:
And that's how we were raised. And so that's how he started out doing business. But he has learned over the years that he gets a much better result from people when he does recognize their efforts. Now, it's not that you did your job, you worked eight hours. Great. You know, oh, that's awesome. Again, not a participation award. Don't give out participation awards.

Dori Epstein [00:35:38]:
But when somebody has done a good job and they have gone above and beyond and they maybe they had an engine repair that was super challenging, but they figured it out, they got the resources, and they got it done. Yeah. Acknowledge that. Absolutely. Acknowledge that.

Lucas Underwood [00:35:56]:
Because.

Dori Epstein [00:35:56]:
Because it makes people want to. That's where the intrinsic motivation starts building. It's like, oh, wow, what I'm doing matters. You're helping them realize that the work they do matters.

David Roman [00:36:07]:
Right.

Dori Epstein [00:36:07]:
And so then they want to do it.

David Roman [00:36:11]:
How do we. Because there's a lot of people, especially old, gruff shop owners, who say, well, a, I don't want that. Right. I want to do it the way I've been doing it, and I shouldn't have to do that. But it's also a big part of why our industry is where it's at right now.

Dori Epstein [00:36:29]:
I agree. And they don't have to. They can do whatever they want, but there's going to be consequences to whatever they decide to do or not to do.

David Roman [00:36:37]:
Right.

Dori Epstein [00:36:37]:
And in my experience and my opinion, if they can at least swing a little bit back over with that pendulum to give some recognition and help people feel good about what they're doing, they're going to help raise the industry. There are going to be more people that are like, yeah, I want to do that. Here's the other side of this, though. Have you had a chance to talk to Sarah Frazier? So her dad is Bill Hoss.

David Roman [00:37:02]:
Yeah. I've not talked to her in a while, but, I mean, I've spoken to her a couple times.

Dori Epstein [00:37:05]:
I had her come speak to our Nawaka chapter, and she was talking about hiring practices and how these different. The younger generations are different. And so they don't want to work. They're not going to work for you if you can't at least give them something that is human, centric acknowledge them, be appreciative of the work that they're doing. So you're not gonna. They might come to work for you as a job, but they're not gonna stay as a career.

David Roman [00:37:30]:
Yeah, I remember, and I've told it before, but I remember when there was an old man that owned a Volkswagen shop in town, and, long story short, walked in, and he wouldn't even speak to one of the clients until he knew that he worked with me. Right? Like. And then he was nice to him. And I'll never forget the lady behind the counter. I said, what makes him like that? And she said, well, he spent his life making everybody else's problems his problems, right? And so he's internalized all these things and made it about, like, they're upset about their car. So I'm upset at them, and I'm mad, and I'm this and I'm that. And he did. He became extraordinarily bitter, especially towards the end of life.

David Roman [00:38:11]:
Right. Like, he was a bit. Very bitter man. And when he lost the ability to work, the outlet for that bitterness went away. And so the problem that I see is that there's no haptic feedback. Like, so we go home, and we act the same way. And, like, my view of relationships are. Is that we're supposed to be in these relationships, and we take and we give, right? We're individual human beings, and we're trying to make the world a better place by what we do together.

David Roman [00:38:38]:
And we're trying to march forward, and we're taking our families with us, and we're going to this place. But oftentimes when we're in that spot and we're in that mindset, we come home as shop owners, and we act like shop owners when we get home.

Dori Epstein [00:38:50]:
Yes, you do.

David Roman [00:38:51]:
And so I, like, got in this really bad loop for a while, and Alex had a fit with me because. And my coach at the time was Rick White, and he said, look, dude, you are screwing this up. And I said, what do you mean I'm screwing this up? He said, you're so worried about the shop that you're going home and you're not being a dad or a husband, and then you're coming to work because you screwed up at home and you're mad at yourself for not being a dad or a husband, so now you're not really being a shop owner at work. Like, we got to break this cycle somehow.

Dori Epstein [00:39:17]:
Agreed.

David Roman [00:39:18]:
And so I. I worry about the health of families and especially in shop owners who are really going Through a hard time. The shop's not performing financially. Right. We. We lost. You think it's okay to, to mention that we, we lost a, a industry person.

Dori Epstein [00:39:37]:
Malin?

David Roman [00:39:38]:
Well, no, we lost somebody else. Oh, no, it was, it was a murder suicide type thing. And it was a good friend of all of ours. And it was like the entire family came out and said, hey, this was a mental health thing. This wasn't. And it was posted on Facebook and it was for the world to see, and it was a whole deal. Right. And we don't really talk about those struggles because we're tough, rough men, and so we're not supposed to talk about those things.

Dori Epstein [00:40:02]:
But you are a human, and I encourage you to talk about those things.

David Roman [00:40:05]:
Yeah.

Dori Epstein [00:40:06]:
And learn to talk about those things. And hopefully we're seeing a shift, slow, painful shift to be able to normalize that mental health problems. Everybody's going to experience them to some degree throughout the course of their lifetimes, for sure.

David Roman [00:40:21]:
Well, I mean, they're learned behaviors. Right. They're learned thought processes.

Dori Epstein [00:40:26]:
The way that there's also the biochemical aspect as well. At the same time, if you are. There's so much that can be done to help people these days. There's so much that can be done.

David Roman [00:40:37]:
Well, like, what stands out to me about, like, the, you know, I was telling about the cognitive behavior therapy thing, like, what that doctor said to me that really resonated. He's like, okay, so you imagine you're driving down this, like, road and it's muddy, and you're driving this vehicle down the road and you're on a tractor and it's cut ruts out. And he said, so your mind has programmed this pattern in this direction and it believes this is what you do. And he said, like, the first question he asked me was like, hey, does anybody in your family, like, have any weird things? And I'm like, what do you mean? He's like, well, for instance, do they hold like, a paper towel in their hand? Like, scrunch the paper towel up. And I was like, that's so funny, because like, my mom, my uncle, my grandmother, and my aunt on one side of the family all do that. And he said, well, you've probably learned some of these behaviors that created these thought patterns that wired your brain this way. And so if we can rewire this, if we can get you to think differently and do something differently, we're going to have a different outcome. Right.

David Roman [00:41:33]:
And so in that process, I learned to teach myself to think differently.

Dori Epstein [00:41:38]:
Yes.

David Roman [00:41:38]:
Right. Like open My eyes. To the fact that I can shift the way I act and behave. I don't think a lot of people do that. I mean, like, look at you. You're just a raging asshole and you stay that way. Yeah. So nothing's changed.

David Roman [00:41:50]:
If anything, you've gotten more bitter.

Lucas Underwood [00:41:52]:
And the shop's making me better. The cars are making me better. It's the cars.

Dori Epstein [00:41:57]:
The cars, yeah.

David Roman [00:41:59]:
Why do the cars make you better?

Dori Epstein [00:42:01]:
Because they're.

David Roman [00:42:02]:
They are.

Lucas Underwood [00:42:03]:
They don't stay fixed.

Dori Epstein [00:42:05]:
Like I said, they're.

David Roman [00:42:08]:
Yeah, I mean, I can see that.

Lucas Underwood [00:42:10]:
But I mean, like, car repairs. I don't know. Shop owners do. I don't know. They're nuts. They're delusional is what they are. They're. They are.

Lucas Underwood [00:42:18]:
They are.

Dori Epstein [00:42:18]:
No, they know the cars are going to break, and that's why they're still in business.

David Roman [00:42:22]:
Well, but I mean, like, I used to really hardcore internalize when something went wrong in the shop and I couldn't get over the fact that the car broke. And then I realized, like, hey, this is not healthy. I'm making myself sick.

Dori Epstein [00:42:33]:
Right?

David Roman [00:42:33]:
And, like, I'm expecting these things to be perfect and things to go the way they're supposed to, but they don't ever do that. So let's just think about this.

Lucas Underwood [00:42:41]:
That's a problem for me. I'm just saying I'm in the wrong.

Dori Epstein [00:42:44]:
Business, Lucas, not you. For being. Being able to be self aware and learning and working with the therapist that was helping you to become more self aware of destructive patterns and then guide you to more constructive ones. I have a huge fear of flying, and it was really, really bad. And I was able to figure out over the years that it tied into the fact that I get incredibly airsick.

David Roman [00:43:11]:
Oh, really?

Dori Epstein [00:43:11]:
And the feeling of getting sick and the feeling of panic. The physiology is like being in a.

David Roman [00:43:17]:
Place where you can't. Like, everybody's gonna see.

Dori Epstein [00:43:20]:
And so it crossed over into, okay, I just have this fear of flying when really it was getting sick. And it got really bad. After I flew to Ireland and passed out on the plane. On the way over, over the middle of the Atlantic Ocean, I pass out. And then it gets worse and worse. And then I start like, okay, I want to have my life. And my life is going to include going to conferences and speaking, going to meeting with clients, clients across the country. I got to get a handle on this.

Dori Epstein [00:43:53]:
And I started the tapes, the desensitization tapes, the cognitive behavioral therapy approach to it, and really, really working on it. But first and foremost, the first thing had to be. I had to figure out how not to throw up on a plane.

David Roman [00:44:08]:
Yeah, right.

Dori Epstein [00:44:09]:
Or pass out.

David Roman [00:44:10]:
How did that work out?

Dori Epstein [00:44:12]:
Wear a patch. And I have the relief band that I wear. And I was. I mean, at first it was everything. It was the relief band, the patch. I had another electronic device that helped me calm down. I would listen to podcasts or the Calm app. And I started listening to the podcast around how flying is safe.

Dori Epstein [00:44:32]:
And it would walk me through meditations. And eventually, now I wear a patch.

David Roman [00:44:37]:
Right.

Dori Epstein [00:44:38]:
And I always pay to sit in the front of. Not first class, but I need to pay to sit up closer so that I am not in the part of.

David Roman [00:44:46]:
The plane that's bouncing up and down.

Dori Epstein [00:44:47]:
Exactly, exactly.

Lucas Underwood [00:44:50]:
The back bounce.

Dori Epstein [00:44:51]:
Yes. It is more. It is more bumpy.

David Roman [00:44:55]:
Yeah, it really is.

Dori Epstein [00:44:56]:
It is.

David Roman [00:44:57]:
Especially if Dutch is flying.

Dori Epstein [00:44:58]:
I'm not going to fly with Dutch.

David Roman [00:45:01]:
No, I would, I would. I will give him this. I explicitly trust him when it comes to that. I mean, he is a stickler for the rules and a stickler for the book. And here's how we're going to do it. I mean, I will. I will give him that. You don't have to worry about process, policy, procedure being followed with that guy.

David Roman [00:45:17]:
He's going to follow it.

Dori Epstein [00:45:18]:
So where in the world does Dutch live?

David Roman [00:45:21]:
He is in Charlotte or Pineville, N.C. came from up north and moved down. Just sold his shop. A very unique human being. I can't believe you've not met him yet.

Dori Epstein [00:45:38]:
Well, I am west coast based, so that might have something to do with it.

David Roman [00:45:42]:
I'm going to invite him to a class that you're coming to. That's just all there is to it now. Okay, so biggest takeaway, what do you. We talk about leadership intensive. And I think every shop owner should come to leadership intensive at least once.

Dori Epstein [00:45:57]:
I do too.

David Roman [00:45:58]:
Right. Because this is really about developing a culture that can make your business successful.

Dori Epstein [00:46:04]:
Absolutely.

David Roman [00:46:05]:
Right. And then the institute comes in and creates this entire pathway for business success that is sustainable.

Dori Epstein [00:46:13]:
Yes.

David Roman [00:46:13]:
Right. Like that. At the end of the day, it's sustainable. It's not. I'm giving you this list of tasks. It's how do we build a foundation, a good business that does what the business does. Right.

Dori Epstein [00:46:22]:
Absolutely.

David Roman [00:46:23]:
And so if that is the case, what's the next step? If a shop owner is sitting here saying, ah, you know what, I'm not into this hojo mojo, whatever you want to call it. Right. What would you say to them to encourage them to come and what do you think the first step of that self realization is first of all, do.

Dori Epstein [00:46:46]:
A little, a tiny little bit of research on AI or Google and you will see that your revenue will increase significantly if you become more self aware, if you start adopting emotional intelligence practices, if you're learning about the leadership, if you come to a leadership intensive and take away three things that you're going to apply from that, you're gonna see a difference in your business, you're gonna see a difference in your relationships. Absolutely. So if you don't want your life to be better, if you don't want your business to be better, then don't come. If you are inspired to put in some effort, then show up and then take something away with you and work on it. Don't just come and sit there and do nothing and then leave and do nothing. Take some notes and then take a look at your notes and decide, okay, I'm going to pick three things and go back that I'm going to go back and I'm going to work on and pick an accountability partner from there and say, hey, can we be accountability partners and make sure that we are actually following up or bring somebody from your shop that then the two of you will hold each other accountable for implementing change and incorporating the practice. And then you can reach out to Michael, you reach out to me, and if you're stuck, we'll help you get past being stuck.

David Roman [00:48:05]:
For sure.

Dori Epstein [00:48:06]:
Absolutely.

David Roman [00:48:07]:
And you know, what I would say is that especially after knowing Michael for a while and talking with Michael, this is the same strategy that extremely successful businesses are using to be successful.

Dori Epstein [00:48:21]:
Absolutely. And not just small ones.

David Roman [00:48:23]:
Right. We're talking about big businesses, Fortune 50, Fortune 500 companies that are saying, this is the only way that we're going to be successful in this marketplace. And you know, I went to, right after that, I went to Tulsa for a Velo meeting. And they're a software company, they run a lot of different softwares. And I thought it was so interesting because Lisa Coyle, who is here at this show, had been part of 360 payments for a long time and had been part of Velo for a long time. And it was so crazy because you could see cues of the culture that Lisa brings to the table and all of the employees of the organization. And you could see that the culture is driving from the ground level up, which that's the first time I've ever experienced something like that where you can see that the staff is developing and supporting and nurturing the culture to keep it moving. In a positive direction.

David Roman [00:49:16]:
And leadership is saying, here's the guardrails. How do we support you within these guardrails? Right.

Dori Epstein [00:49:21]:
That's amazing. I love it.

David Roman [00:49:22]:
And so for an organization of that size to pull it off to the level, I mean, if you ever get a chance to go tour their facility or talk to any of their people, it's crazy. I mean, like, I was really impressed by it. If. If they can do it, we can do it. Absolutely. Right.

Dori Epstein [00:49:37]:
Because it's on a much smaller scale.

David Roman [00:49:38]:
Yeah.

Dori Epstein [00:49:39]:
All it does is start with one person, the leader at the top, to recognize the value and start to implement some minor changes.

David Roman [00:49:47]:
I. I agree, but I think we have baggage.

Dori Epstein [00:49:50]:
Oh, we all do. And the industry does.

David Roman [00:49:52]:
Yeah. Well, I mean, I guess the thing is, is, like, I think about interactions I've had with staff members, and over time, that baggage builds up and we say this thing, we do this thing, and then this happens, and then that happens. And the next thing you know, you've got this feeling about this person. Whether it's true or not.

Dori Epstein [00:50:08]:
Absolutely.

David Roman [00:50:09]:
Whether it lines up with facts or not is irrelevant. It's that I feel this way because this has happened. Right. I don't trust this person or I'm not going to give this person this look at what they did this one time. Right. If that's where you're at, how do you reset that? What's the reset button to get us. Is there a reset button to where it's like, all right, I'm gonna.

Dori Epstein [00:50:32]:
Yes. It takes a commitment to. Well, a commitment to coaching, a commitment to the process, a commitment to. I work with clients all the time trying to get them. Working with them to get to a point where, hey, this isn't personal. This isn't about me recognizing that the person that you're unhappy with.

David Roman [00:50:51]:
That's a hard struggle.

Dori Epstein [00:50:52]:
I know it. I know it. I know it. I know. And I'm not saying that it's easy. I'm not saying that it always works. But to continue the conversation, to continue the practice of letting go, and it's a lifelong practice of letting go. It's none of my business what you think of me.

Dori Epstein [00:51:11]:
Yeah, I want you to like me. It's none of my business. And the more that I can accept that, then it's like, okay, just be me. Just be me, and I will attract my tribe. And at work, you're not gonna like everybody. Not everybody is going to like you. Think about all the people you don't like. It is okay.

Dori Epstein [00:51:32]:
You can't expect that you can go through life not liking all sorts of people and that everybody's gonna like you. You don't want everybody to like you, then you'd have to be friends with everybody and that's exhausting.

David Roman [00:51:43]:
David hates everybody and it works out really well for him.

Dori Epstein [00:51:46]:
Have respect for each other and if you can't figure it out between the two of you, bring somebody else in. One of my favorite things to talk about is if there is conflict, instead of it being me against you, instead it's going to be me and you working on the problem.

David Roman [00:52:02]:
Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Dori Epstein [00:52:03]:
Whether it's a policy, a procedure, or we have some conflict and we're seeing things from a different, completely different perspective. Like, okay, Lucas, I'm really pissed off at you because you did blah, blah, blah. And then, okay, wait a second. It's not about you, Lucas. It's about what happened or what I perceived that you did. So now we're standing here looking out in a different direction, like, okay, what's the problem? This is the problem. How can we work together to figure it out and get past it? We don't have to like each other.

David Roman [00:52:34]:
As a young man, I think my biggest challenge to overcome and, and I see some of this in David too, to this day. But the competitive nature in us tends to make us about winning, not about, like, we're not talking about the war, we're talking about the battle. Right. And so we're really interested in winning that particular battle. And so it's about being right right now. It's not about the long term impact of being right right now.

Dori Epstein [00:53:05]:
Correct. I'm laughing because. Did you guys see the red light, green light games yesterday?

David Roman [00:53:11]:
No. We were in here recording. They don't let us go to games and stuff like that. Kent and Cecil came in and said, listen, we want this many episodes. You two are to be in here. We don't want you out in the field. We need you in here recording. That was the ultimatum we were given.

Dori Epstein [00:53:25]:
The reason that I'm laughing is because one person went to the emergency room yesterday and there's another person that I know went to urgent care today because they were going to win.

David Roman [00:53:36]:
Right. You'll hurt yourself to win.

Dori Epstein [00:53:39]:
Yes.

David Roman [00:53:40]:
And we don't think about the consequence. And that was something, especially me and my wife, when we started kind of like turning a corner in our relationship was like, huh? We have these two little things that are like us and they have their personalities and they do these things and we want them to be successful and we want them to have good lives. And for that to happen, it can't be I'm going to win or you're going to win. It has to be that, like, hey, let's go in a direction, right?

Dori Epstein [00:54:08]:
We want to win as parents, right?

David Roman [00:54:09]:
If we're going to go in a positive direction, like, let's decide where we want to go, and let's help each other get to where we want to go. You're a human being, I'm a human being. Let's work together to make this a better place. Or we can be miserable and we can fight about everything, and it can be about me being right and you being right or right.

Dori Epstein [00:54:25]:
Right.

David Roman [00:54:25]:
But at some point, you got to make a decision like, hey, I'm kind of going to get over myself.

Dori Epstein [00:54:29]:
Yeah, please, get over yourself.

David Roman [00:54:31]:
And it's the ego thing, right? I have to be right.

Dori Epstein [00:54:35]:
When you can get to the point where you can acknowledge that. No, you don't. That's when you really start winning.

David Roman [00:54:40]:
Yeah, for sure. Because, like, poor David here, his competitive nature. He always has to be right. And he's so smart that the problem is just usually he's right. But David has no grace, okay? David does not extend grace to people. He just thinks they're all stupid.

Dori Epstein [00:55:00]:
Well, I kind of did hear you say that earlier, so I can't really defend you.

Lucas Underwood [00:55:05]:
It's true.

David Roman [00:55:06]:
I mean, I don't disagree.

Lucas Underwood [00:55:08]:
Like, there you go.

David Roman [00:55:09]:
When you're as smart as David is, I guess a lot of people are wrong.

Dori Epstein [00:55:13]:
Well, we like to go around, you know, saying everybody else is the idiot, and we. It's hard for us to acknowledge that we are also idiots at times.

David Roman [00:55:20]:
Oh, let me tell you, I am getting really good at acknowledging that at this point. David reminds me daily. Thank you for being here.

Dori Epstein [00:55:28]:
Thank you for having me. This has been fun.

David Roman [00:55:30]:
Yes, ma'am.